Right Thinking From The Left Coast
No legacy is so rich as honesty - William Shakespeare

A Tale of Two Smears
by Lee

Two days ago I wrote this post about Macaca Allen’s attempt to smear Jim Webb by taking snippets from books he has written and purporting that they somehow speak to his character.  In the comments to that post, Dirk Steele wrote the following.

So you think it’s a good thing that people take a book written by one of the canidates out of context, when contemplating if they should vote for him? How can you defend this blatant smear tactic?

This would be like claiming Arnold thinks about killing women by playing that scene in Total Recall when he shot Sharon Stone in the head.

It’s quite ironic that Dirk used Arnold Schwarzenegger as his example, because something very similar happened back in 2003.  I documented it in a post called The Dirtiest of Tricks.  Just a little over three years ago we had the recall election here in California which put Arnie in office.  Since he was the favorite to win, the left wing groups pulled out all the stops in their advertising.  One of those groups was the überlefties at MoveOn, whose commercial started out with shots of various women, and then presents a quote from Arnold purporting to show just how callous he is towards them.  Here’s the quote.

“How many times do you get away with this—to take a woman, grab her upside-down, and smash her face into a toilet bowl.”

Here was my commentary at the time.

Note the fine print at the bottom of the quote:  referring to Terminator 3.  If you haven’t seen the movie, there is a scene in a bathroom where Arnie’s Terminator character fights the female TX.  During the fight he grabs the TX, flips her upside down, and smashes her head into a toilet.

Can you believe this crap?  He is discussing a scene from a movie, and the scumbags at MoveOn are insinuating that this is how he feels about women.

Simply pathetic.  The left hasn’t been able to stop Arnie through legitimate means, so they wait until the week before the election to start their smear campaign (with the help of their fellow liberals in the California media).  Then MoveOn, the night before the election, pulls this stunt.

No matter what your political leanings, to totally defame a candidate in this manner, when they have no chance to respond before the election, is disgusting and immoral.

Note that I objected to the tactic itself, not the fact that this tactic was used by a liberal group.  Now that James Webb is being smeared in more or less exactly the same manner, I object to it as well.  Just like Arnie’s words describing a scene in Terminator III have nothing to do with his ability to govern, these out-of-context snippets from Webb’s books are completely immaterial to the character of the person who wrote them.

Now, here’s the interesting thing.  This 2003 post was one of the first from this blog to get a lot of really big blogosphere-wide attention.  It was linked to by countless websites, including Andrew Sullivan, National Review, and Lucianne Goldberg.  A quick perusal of The Corner for the word “webb” shows that, by and large, most people on that site support the use of the Webb quotes by the Allen campaign. 

Strange isn’t it.  I have this idea that when I criticize the left for doing something, then the right does the same thing, I should also criticize the right.  But I’m kooky like that.

Posted by Lee on 10/29/06 at 02:29 PM (Discuss this in the forums)

Comments


Posted by on 10/29/06 at 04:21 PM from United States

It’s CNN’s and the librul media’s fault.
It’s fair because Jon Stewart is as bad as Rush Limbaugh.
It’s fair because gays want to marry.

Posted by West Virginia Rebel on 10/29/06 at 05:27 PM from United States

Speaking of which:

BULLSEYE AND DAMN STRAIGHT.

Posted by on 10/29/06 at 05:52 PM from United States

Does anyone take Moveon.org seriously about anything?  I mean, its nothing more than a collection of neo-socialist asswipe college kids, so who pays any attention to them?

Posted by on 10/29/06 at 08:53 PM from United States

Except it’s a collection of neo-socialist asswipe college kids bankrolled by George Soros, so keep at least one eye on the bastards.

--TR

Posted by Nethicus on 10/29/06 at 09:40 PM from United States

I’ll reitereate that it’s GADMAN’s fault.

Strange isn’t it.  I have this idea that when I criticize the left for doing something, then the right does the same thing, I should also criticize the right.  But I’m kooky like that.

It’s an uproar, sure, but I think Webb isn’t handling it correctly.  Had he come out and said, “It’s fiction.  Deal with it,” then that would be enough.  But like a true politician he can’t be concise and direct, so instead we have this dust-up about a non-issue.

But the Republicans have been attacked in a similar vein by the Democrats.  It’s equally stupid, but the precedent is there, so there’s nothing objectionable to such an attack by Allen, other than it’s juevenile and outside the issues.

Posted by on 10/29/06 at 10:07 PM from United States

Note that I objected to the tactic itself, not the fact that this tactic was used by a liberal group.  Now that James Webb is being smeared in more or less exactly the same manner, I object to it as well.

I argued this position, pretty much exactly. I’m flabergasted, for lack of a better word. No, it’s a pretty good word to describe the feeling I have after some people here (whom I’m somewhat fond of) continue to argue against the point I was trying to make. It’s borderline insanity. I’m drained.

Posted by on 10/29/06 at 11:49 PM from United States

But the Republicans have been attacked in a similar vein by the Democrats.  It’s equally stupid, but the precedent is there, so there’s nothing objectionable to such an attack by Allen, other than it’s juevenile and outside the issues.

I think we need to demand more of those who would represent us than that.  “...[T]he precedent is there...” excuses all sorts of bad behavior.  The precendent is there for both sides of the aisle to use all sorts of dirty tricks and flat-out illegal activities to win an election. 

I know enough about Allen to know I sure as hell wouldn’t vote for him.  That doesn’t mean I’d vote for Webb, I don’t know a thing about him (I’m not from Virginia, don’t really have anything at stake in this election), if he’s as big a douchebag as Allen I’d just as soon sit this election out if I lived in Virginia.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 12:11 AM from United States

I think we need to demand more of those who would represent us than that.  “...[T]he precedent is there...” excuses all sorts of bad behavior.  The precendent is there for both sides of the aisle to use all sorts of dirty tricks and flat-out illegal activities to win an election.

I know enough about Allen to know I sure as hell wouldn’t vote for him.  That doesn’t mean I’d vote for Webb, I don’t know a thing about him (I’m not from Virginia, don’t really have anything at stake in this election), if he’s as big a douchebag as Allen I’d just as soon sit this election out if I lived in Virginia.

All politicians are douchebags.  The fault is in the system.  We need an overhaul, preferably by a third party, something far better organized than the Reform party.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 03:12 AM from United Kingdom

I think the two examples are quite different. Here’s my take:

Yes Arnie is discussing a scene in a movie, but it’s almost like he’s fantasizing about how great it would be to be able to do that in real life. I think that was the point MoveOn was trying to get across.

Isn’t that different than just citing examples of scenes from Schwarzenegger movies with questionable behaviour, also very different from just quoting passages from a fictional book in the Allen/Webb case?

If they were able to get Webb in an interview to say how great it would be to do the things the characters in his book get away with, that would be a very different story.

I think MoveOn was justified in making a point of Arnold Schwarzenegger’s comments.

Posted by mooresucksass on 10/30/06 at 03:49 AM from United States

Webb’s campaign, comprised of racist liberals (the most racist people you will ever meet swing to the left), turned Allen’s uninformed comment into a “racist” media frenzy.  Who the hell knows “macaca” is a racial slur? 

So if Webb’s campaign is going to engage in lame smears, they shouldn’t complain to get lame smears back.

Deal with it...........

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:19 AM from United Kingdom

Who the hell knows “macaca” is a racial slur?

That’s not really an arguement. The fact is, it is a racial slur. Allen knew it was and then pretended it meant something else (his hairdo?). That’s lame and so is your weak defense of it.

Posted by Sean Galbraith on 10/30/06 at 05:46 AM from Canada

Apparently, one of the Webb books that Macaca Allen is condemning Webb for having written, Fields of Fire, is on the USMC Professional Reading Program

Whoops.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 08:05 AM from United States

Webb’s campaign, comprised of racist liberals (the most racist people you will ever meet swing to the left), turned Allen’s uninformed comment into a “racist” media frenzy.  Who the hell knows “macaca” is a racial slur?

At least Michael Moore can form a coherent arguement.  The most racist people swing to the left?  Maybe in bizarro land.  Macaca is well established as a racial slur from the area of the world where Allen’s mom is from.  Doh!

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 08:18 AM from United Kingdom

What’s going on...since when did Americans vote for literate politicans? How can they represent the illiterate majority?

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 08:18 AM from United States

What’s especially funny is that Arnie got his ass whomped by the TX.

God, that movie sucked.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 09:51 AM from United States

He got his ass whomped in the second one, too.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 10:16 AM from United States

racist liberals (the most racist people you will ever meet swing to the left)

I think it’s strange that the hard-core rightwingers actually believe that. After all, if you meet some guy in a bar and he turns out to be a virulent racist, you’re just naturally going to assume he’s a conservative wingnut, aren’t you?  Sure, there’s a tiny chance that he’s liberal, but the more racist he seems to be, the more likely it is that he’s a screaming fundie republican; that’s just the way to bet.

I suppose that it gives the right-wing some comfort to make up little stories like this, to tell each other these little lies.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 10:18 AM from United States

It’s lame to attack the fiction created by the competitor. But it’s even lamer if the guy can’t defend his work by articulately explaining how his stuff is fiction. The Arnold quotes are obviously meant as a joke. Who shows up to a job interview asking if the new job will let him dunk womens’ heads into toilets, his true passion. “Sorry, after some time we’ve decided you aren’t a good fit here.”

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 11:30 AM from United States

Conservative racists are vocal about their hatred, but typically it’s anger bred from resentment from another section of their lives.  Sometimes their anger is expressed in volence, but deep down they regret it.  It’s one reason they’re so angry.

Liberal racists are smart, well-groomed, and have carefully coordinated their efforts to keep minorities in poverty and ignorance to control their votes.  There’s no anger in the racism.  They actually believe they are helping them by keeping themselves in power.

In the meantime, there is no black family structure, their neighborhoods are poor and run down, and their leaders only speak when it’s time to rally the troops against the “racist” Republicans.

In the meantime, they live in the poorest neighborhoods in the country.  Crime is rampant.  So is illiteracy.  The average life expectancy of the black male is significantly lower because of that.

It’s been that way for nearly 50 years.

And Republicans are the ones who are racist.

Posted by mooresucksass on 10/30/06 at 11:45 AM from United States

That’s not really an arguement. The fact is, it is a racial slur.

you are the one who is presenting a non-argument… had you ever heard the word macaca before this incident? no of course you didn’t. me neither. most people have not, and there is no way you can prove Webb was any different

At least Michael Moore can form a coherent arguement.  The most racist people swing to the left?  Maybe in bizarro land.

Wow! nice coherent argument!

Macaca is well established as a racial slur from the area of the world where Allen’s mom is from.  Doh!

Yes we’ve all heard this and there is one big problem with this.  Allen’s MOM is the one from French Tunisia, not Allen.  Unfortunately for you, you can not prove that he DID know what it meant. He possibly heard this word as a child, that it was in his subconscious and it just came out without him knowing… You can’t prove it one way or another, and neither can I.  Allen stated he didn’t know and apologized directly to Sidarth later.  As much as you want to believe he MUST have known because he’s an evil Republican- you can’t prove it and that’s a simple fact you’ll have to deal with.

My point stands… Webb’s campaign took off on a lame smear campaign, they should be able to take it in return.

racist liberals (the most racist people you will ever meet swing to the left)

I think it’s strange that the hard-core rightwingers actually believe that.

Of course you do… you’re a delusional liberal.  Most racist leftwingers don’t think they are racist. They don’t have a clue.  Do you know why?  They are so racist, they think that racism is defined as “white people discriminating against minorities and people of color”.

From Merriam Webster Online:
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: ‘rA-"si-z&m;also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

Sorry Munck, racism goes both ways, and these days it usually does.

Yes there are racist white people- some racist against “minorities” and others racist against ... “white people”.

The most racist white people I’ve ever personally met (who were racist against minorities) were not political at all, they were not Republicans.  It’s idiots like you in your own mentally ill ilk who put people up to this kind of race baiting racist bullshit

Sorry Munck, you are the liar.  Racism is alive and well in this country especially on today’s college campuses.  You’ll see white people discriminated against on a regular basis on college campuses for no better reason than “they’re white”.  You see all kinds of college clubs for different ethnicities, yet if anybody tries to start a caucasian club- for balance-, we see how the leftists really feel about diversity.

No instead Munck, we can actually have an OUTRIGHT racist department at a State level University and no lefty bats an eye. They welcome such racism, but again, you won’t ever hear them call it that. They don’t realize that’s what it is- it goes back to their brain-dead definition of racism......

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 11:47 AM from United States

And Republicans are the ones who are racist.

No, no, you got that backwards.  My point was that racists, with very few exceptions, are Republicans.

Liberal racists are smart, well-groomed, and have carefully coordinated their efforts to keep minorities in poverty and ignorance to control their votes.

That’s just silly. Civil rights, affirmative action, Head Start, ... the list goes on and on, of things created and put in place by Democrats and opposed fiercely by Republicans. Why do you think that the vast majority of blacks vote for Democrats?  Do you think that they’re stupid, can’t discern that they’re voting for a party that hates them?  Or maybe they’re seeing the truth about Republican racists and voting appropriately.
Posted by on 10/30/06 at 11:53 AM from United States

Nethicus, mooresucksass, the two of you need to coordinate your delusions.  One says that Democrats are being racist by discriminating against blacks, the other says they’re discriminating against whites. Make up your tiny minds.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 12:00 PM from United States

Allen’s MOM is the one from French Tunisia, not Allen.  Unfortunately for you, you can not prove that he DID know what it meant. He possibly heard this word as a child, that it was in his subconscious and it just came out without him knowing…

Racism is generally passed from parent to child.  The “subconscious” argument fails because there are a number of other incidents of Allen displaying racism.  The incidents reinforce each other: he habitually called Americans of African descent “the N word” and an American of Indian descent the same thing in language he learned at his mother’s knee.
Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 12:22 PM from United States

Nethicus, mooresucksass, the two of you need to coordinate your delusions.

Then you say:

That’s just silly. Civil rights, affirmative action, Head Start, ... the list goes on and on, of things created and put in place by Democrats and opposed fiercely by Republicans.

And if these programs were the magical cure-alls to racism, why do we still have high-density populations of minorities living at or below the poverty line?  All of these government programs are doing nothing for the poor.  If they did work, we’d see greater integration of society.

But they don’t work.  We don’t see greater integration.  Blacks still start off with a big disadvantage.  And their Democratic leadership, the same leadership that’s been leading them for 50 years, hasn’t moved them out of their slums.  Why?  Because they are always portrayed as the victim.  Their leaders pat them on the head, say “There there, not your fault, it’s whitey’s”, and cut them a subsistence check in exchange for their votes-- votes that have perpetually kept them in ignorance and poverty.

So don’t tell me that Democrats are the ones looking out for the little guy, Bob.  They’re the ones sticking it to the little guy.  And if you can’t see that, you’re the delusional one.

Posted by mooresucksass on 10/30/06 at 01:05 PM from United States

The “subconscious” argument fails because there are a number of other incidents of Allen displaying racism.

Deluded Munckey.... are you talking about third party heresay from over 35 years ago?  This is your “proof” that Allen as he stands before us today is a racist?  Keep trying ....

One says that Democrats are being racist by discriminating against blacks, the other says they’re discriminating against whites.

Affirmative action is a perfect example of a program that,while originally having good intentions and probably doing some good, DOES discriminate against whites PURELY on the basis of RACE. 

and Nethicus explained the other part, but I don’t expect you to be able to understand it

Civil rights, affirmative action,

If your limited mental capacity can comprehend the following information, you probably should look at this
wake-up call right here.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 01:20 PM from United States

And if these programs were the magical cure-alls to racism, why do we still have high-density populations of minorities living at or below the poverty line?

No one has ever said that they cure racism; if anything, they probably increase it, because some whites will resent the “uppity blacks getting ahead.” The programs are intended to counteract racism, to compensate for its effects. And they can only have a very small effect, because they’re tiny in scope compared to the extent of endemic racism in society.

All of these government programs are doing nothing for the poor.  If they did work, we’d see greater integration of society.

But they don’t work.  We don’t see greater integration.

Greater than what?  Greater than it would be without them? That’s absurd. These programs clearly and unambiguously improve the situations of minorities. Not very much because they’re tiny government programs going up against huge societal forces, and not very efficiently because, as I said, they’re government programs. But they’re significantly better than doing nothing.

Their leaders pat them on the head, say “There there, not your fault, it’s whitey’s”, and cut them a subsistence check in exchange for their votes-- votes that have perpetually kept them in ignorance and poverty.

Again, you can only make that claim by assuming that blacks are on average stupid. They’re not; they see what’s happening and vote accordingly.
Posted by on 10/30/06 at 01:35 PM from United States

No one has ever said that they cure racism; if anything, they probably increase it, because some whites will resent the “uppity blacks getting ahead.”

Or resent unequal treatment by the government.

Or resent being forced to engage in what is essentially, racism.

Or resent the abuse of power and the trampling of the constitution.

Or…

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 01:49 PM from United States

Affirmative action is a perfect example of a program that,while originally having good intentions and probably doing some good, DOES discriminate against whites PURELY on the basis of RACE.

Yep.  And for every white guy discriminated against, there are thousands (and this isn’t hyperbole) of blacks being discriminated against at the same time in this country. Equality means treating all races equally; it has to be true in the wider sense—over the entire country for long periods of time—before we can concentrate on making it true for individual cases. Having one white guy not get into law school because he’s white actually increases equality in this country a tiny, tiny bit, because it balances one black guy who didn’t get a mortgage because he’s black.

Sure, it isn’t fair to the white guy, who maybe doesn’t have a racist bone in his body and has never himself discriminated against a black.  It’s not fair to the black guy either, and the class of black guys has a long, long way to go before they’ll be even with the class of white guys, especially if you add in things like slavery and Jim Crow. As soon as they get somewhere within a light-year of being even, I’ll worry about discrimination against whites in individual cases.

Finally, it’s pretty hard to tell the difference between whites demanding that they not be discriminated against and whites demanding that they retain the privileges and preferences over blacks that they’ve always had.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 01:52 PM from United States

What is up with the Democrats using black-face images so much?
http://bluecrabboulevard.com/2006/10/29/are-you-kidding-me-3/

Every time conservative Michelle Malkin turns on comments, she gets flooded with obscene asian whore references from the Democrats. Apparently there’s some ping pong ball trick Democrats would like to see her do. What’s up with that?

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 01:55 PM from United Kingdom

Isn’t the fact that your treating “blacks” like a homogenous group and assuming they are too stupid to use their vote properly racist? At the very least it’s intelectually lazy just clustering such a large group as blacks are into one group and assuming they are all the same.

Anyway i don’t think it’s worthwhile arguing over which party is more racist than the other one, fact is you could find people from either side that are racist, the way to combat it isn’t to attack any party it’s to attack the actual individual racists and show that racism won’t be tolerated.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 02:10 PM from United States

Yep.  And for every white guy discriminated against, there are thousands (and this isn’t hyperbole) of blacks being discriminated against at the same time in this country.

Ok, so two wrongs make a right then. Easy peesy, Japanesey.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 02:18 PM from United Kingdom

Bob wouldn’t your idea of allowing black people into your top colleges just create more animosity towards black people in general meaning an increase in racism?
The idea isn’t to discriminate against one group to create equal discrimination across all of society, it’s to discriminate against no one based on race and allow equal opportunities for all regardless of race.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 02:23 PM from United States

Bob, you get my Aquanet Moment of the day for such blind support of broken government:

No one has ever said that they cure racism; if anything, they probably increase it, because some whites will resent the “uppity blacks getting ahead.”

All whites are racists, then?  Or just all of the whites in power?  Including yourself?

The programs are intended to counteract racism, to compensate for its effects. And they can only have a very small effect, because they’re tiny in scope compared to the extent of endemic racism in society.

So it’s a vast conspiracy by the Whole Humanity Invalidating Those Evil Yacks (WHITEY).  I must have missed the conspiratorial meetings.

Greater than what?  Greater than it would be without them? That’s absurd. These programs clearly and unambiguously improve the situations of minorities. Not very much because they’re tiny government programs going up against huge societal forces, and not very efficiently because, as I said, they’re government programs. But they’re significantly better than doing nothing.

Bob, just because you really really really want something to work, doesn’t mean it is working.  It’s not.  It doesn’t make any impact.  It’s broken.  And like a good liberal you want to keep throwing money at it, saying “It really does work!” when in reality it doesn’t. 

It has nothing to do with WHITEY.  It has nothing to do with “lazy blacks”.  It has to do with how the system is organized and how it has been sabotaging the opportunities granted to the blacks since the inception of the Civil Rights Movement.

MLK had a dream where all minorities were free at last.  Civil rights was adopted and passed by Republicans.  Democrats, including Al Gore’s pappa, opposed it.  And then the black leadership sold out the movement to the Democrats, who worked very hard to keep the black populations voting for Democrats.

Again, you can only make that claim by assuming that blacks are on average stupid. They’re not; they see what’s happening and vote accordingly.

Ignorance and stupidity are two very different things.  Ignorance can be cured by education.  But the public schools in black ghettos are terrible.  By blaming WHITEY for their ills, the black leadership does nothing but stoke the anger of the black population, but they do nothing to resolve the standing problems.  They get upset when Chris Rock’s mom has to get out of her seat on a bus, but when over 50% of high school students drop out, that’s merits no attention!

Open your eyes, Bob.  Every inner city is controlled by Democrat leadership.  Every inner city has terrible schools.  Every inner city has decaying infrastructure and high crime.  Every inner city carries a mortality rate of black males that’s much higher than any other demographic group in the country.  Democrat leadership!  For nearly 50 years!  And this perpetual state of decay is where this minority population finds itself?

And you want to call Republicans racist?!  Bob, you’re the racist.  You’re perfectly happy with Democrats in control, keeping the same crappy Government programs running the same crappy schools and same crappy welfare situations that have ravaged the black community for nearly half a century!

Don’t tell me blacks can’t get ahead because of Johnny 6-pack in his pick-up truck.  Blacks can’t get ahead until they shed the yoke of Democrat oppression.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:02 PM from United States

Allen’s mom is from Tunisia, Allen uses a Tunisian racial slur, Allen says he doesn’t know what the word means.  Allen’s team say they made the word up as a variation of mohawk, due to the macaca target’s haircut (which didn’t look like a mohawk, at least in the Mr. T. sense).  So maybe Allen just used the variation of mohawk, or just made it up on the spot, even though he repeats it very clearly several times.  Yeah, people are way out of bounds on the Tunisia racial slur thing, mmmhmmm…

As far as leftists keeping the black man down, you sho is right boss.  Black men was doing fine until those dag gum librul purgressives came along and got ‘em equal voting rights and equal representation.  Then they try and bring up us po’ black folk to the same level of earnin’ as the white folk, seein’ as we weren’t on no level playin’ field until the late 60’s and early 70’s.  Why should we want any help, I’m sure those good ol’ southern boys would hire us if there were no penalty if they didn’.  Massa sho loves me, I knows it!  Them libruls say it’s about gettin’ the same oppotunities as everyone else with education and applyin’ fo jobs and such, but darkies know the evil prugressive just uses these tools of satan to keep us darkies weak, and servile so we can vote for ‘em.  Sheeutt, I bet it’s John Kerry, Ed Kennedy, Hillary Clinton and the DNC runnin’ around at night under sheets and lightin’ burnin’ crosses.  Shonuff!!!

Posted by salinger on 10/30/06 at 04:04 PM from United States

Open your eyes, Bob.  Every inner city is controlled by Democrat leadership.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

Keep on spreading this fertilizer – nothing but unmitigated lies.

I work in over a 100 days a year in inner city schools all over this country. The decline of the public school system is nothing more than the results of FEDERAL programs promoted by the corporate sector. The Republican Party is in bed with folks who want to see the public school system dismantled - not because they don’t work (although they will spout that lie any chance they get)- but because they do not believe education is a right. They want to see the schools dismantled because they want and need an uneducated portion of the populace.

So don’t go giving me that crock of shit lie that the schools are in bad shape because they are run by Democrats, Liberals, or lesbians from Mars until you’ve spent some time in them. Because if you’d spent any time in a couple dozen schools across this country you wouldn’t be spouting such crap infested corporate spun talking point statements.

I’ve stated my case re: this subject a number of times here and I’ve got work to do tonight so I can’t get into it again just yet.

Oh and the drop out rate for blacks in the inner city - it’s closer to 80 percent.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:13 PM from United States

Bob wouldn’t your idea of allowing black people into your top colleges just create more animosity towards black people in general meaning an increase in racism?

I think that a lot of the top colleges already accept blacks.  However, I take your meaning, and I did once suggest to the president of my college that Brown and the other Ivys should restrict admissions to minorities and females for the next thirty years.  I didn’t get a lot of enthusiasm, despite the fact that she herself is both female and black.

because some whites will resent the “uppity blacks getting ahead.”

All whites are racists, then?

Ah, I think I see the problem here.  You can’t read.

Bob, just because you really really really want something to work, doesn’t mean it is working.  It’s not.  It doesn’t make any impact.  It’s broken.

And yet, somehow, Ruth Simmons, youngest of 12 children born to poor sharecroppers in Texas, is President of Brown University.  The previous and current Secretaries of State are black. Etc. etc. etc.  Something seems to be working, just too slowly.

Who said anything about money?  I don’t want to add or subtract money, I want to discriminate against white males in favor of women, blacks, and other minorities to approximately the same extent that the latter groups have been discriminated against for the last 200 years. After about 50 years of that, we can reconsider.

I don’t want to spend more money on schools, I want to take 90% of the school budgets of the affluent white suburbs and give it to the inner cities, including transferring all the good teachers and expensive equipment. I want all private schools to accept blacks, women, and other minorities in preference to white males. 

Blacks can’t get ahead until they shed the yoke of Democrat oppression.

Which, if they agreed with you, they could do in a heartbeat by voting for Republicans. Yet for some reason blacks, including college-educated blacks (neither ignorant nor stupid) vote in overwhelming numbers for Democrats.
Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:29 PM from United States

Gee Bob, as a 41 y/o white male born to poor parents who were willing to work for a living, I have been fucking discriminated against my entire fucking life thanks to affirmative action.

I have busted my ass against all this shit and you want me to give up more? You donate your substantial stock portfolio first jack off. How about a Kennedy donation, I mean how many 80 million dollar trust funds does one need in off shore accounts.

I work in an Inner City Community College which primarily services the youth from failed inner city high schools, and guess what, they don’t give a shit about learning anything. Financial aid is play money in their pocket for spinners and a gold grill for their teeth.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 04:42 PM from United States

Keep on spreading this fertilizer – nothing but unmitigated lies.

It’s a lie that every metropolitan inner city is controlled by Democrats?

New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, DC, Detroit, Dallas, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Philly, Pittsburg, Miami…

I work in over a 100 days a year in inner city schools all over this country. The decline of the public school system is nothing more than the results of FEDERAL programs promoted by the corporate sector

WHAT!?  The evil corporationsa are the shadow organization behind the Federal Government that is pulling the strings to destroy public schools so not everyone can get an education!?

Salinger-- how big is that tinfoil hat you’re wearing?

The Federal Gov’t is a problem, but it’s not the problem.  Living conditions, deterioration of family, loss of property value (which decreases revenue to the schools), federal oversight-- these are all symptoms of the greater problem which I’m addressing.  If you want inner city youth to succeed, it’s not just in fixing the schools-- it’s fixing where they live.  Take inner city youth out of the city, give them a stable family environment, food, safe neighborhoods, and what will you see?  Improvement!  We need to get the utopian schools suburbia has and put them in the inner city, but we can’t do that until the social ills of the inner city are addressed.

And those social ills have been the same ills that we had 50 years ago.  Don’t give me this bullshit that Republican cabals are the ones destroying the inner city schools.  That’s simply insane.

Ah, I think I see the problem here.  You can’t read.

No, the problem here is you’re an idiot.  Example:

And yet, somehow, Ruth Simmons, youngest of 12 children born to poor sharecroppers in Texas, is President of Brown University.

And how many of her classmates dropped out?  And what of the 80% dropping out today?  Ruth is one of those who perevered.  She’s an exception, you amazing buffoon.  Whereas you look at predominantly white or asian schools, the drop-out rate is less than 10%.  Do you think implementing reverse discrimination is going to fix that, you enormous twit?

I don’t want to spend more money on schools, I want to take 90% of the school budgets of the affluent white suburbs and give it to the inner cities, including transferring all the good teachers and expensive equipment

Translation:  I want to throw more money at a broken system (just to do it, I’m going to obliterate affluent white schools at the same time). 

Great solution, Butt Munch.  We called that MAD back in the Cold War.

I want all private schools to accept blacks, women, and other minorities in preference to white males. 

And how do you do that?  By forcing them with draconian sanctions and, in essence, make the private schools public?  Or do you do what an American would do:  fix the system so minorities aren’t encouraged to live in squalor so they can earn money and afford to pay the tuition to these private institutions.

And if you want to send these kids to private schools for great education, aren’t you essentially saying that the public education system is so broken that the only way these kids can get a decent education is to send them to private schools?  Why the hell do you want to restructure public schooling when you’re the one admitting that private education is superior to any form of public education?

I’ll tell you why, Butt Munch.  It’s because you’re so ingrained in thinking that the socialist standard is superior you don’t even recognized the contradictions in your statements.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:44 PM from United States

I was denied a job once because I wasn’t a minority. Seriously, I wasn’t even allowed to apply. This was a private business, not some university or public institution. Of course, that shouldn’t matter.

Fortunately, I wasn’t raised with a victim mentality. I went out and got an even better job. Bill Cosby is right.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 04:46 PM from United States

I was denied a job once because I wasn’t a minority. Seriously, I wasn’t even allowed to apply. This was a private business, not some university or public institution. Of course, that shouldn’t matter.

Let me just say that our current personnel recruitment has some very interesting… demands on the applicants.

Posted by salinger on 10/30/06 at 04:56 PM from United States

WHAT!?  The evil corporationsa are the shadow organization behind the Federal Government that is pulling the strings to destroy public schools so not everyone can get an education!?

YES - and they’re making a ton of cash doing it.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 04:58 PM from United States

I have busted my ass against all this shit and you want me to give up more?

Yep.  I’m sorry that it’s unfair to you, but at least you haven’t been hanged from a tree by guys in white sheets because you may have whistled at a pretty girl.  So you’ve got that going for you.

You donate your substantial stock portfolio first jack off.

This makes Buzzwaster crazy, but my will states clearly that all my money is going to charity. In fact, to scholarships for disadvantaged minorities.

I work in an Inner City Community College which primarily services the youth from failed inner city high schools, and guess what, they don’t give a shit about learning anything.

Obviously you can’t recover from 12 years of a failed primary and secondary education system.
Posted by salinger on 10/30/06 at 04:58 PM from United States

Here’s a little reading for ya Nethicus.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 05:08 PM from United States

I was denied a job once because I wasn’t a minority.

I was denied a full-ride scholarship to Penn, tuition, room and board, books, travel, and a gold watch, because I wasn’t female. I was even more qualified than the person who got it, but on the other hand she ended up working in the West Wing. It never even occurred to me to resent it, even when I was working 60-hour weeks in heavy construction to pay for Brown. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes you’re born in an odd-numbered year and the bear eats you.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 05:17 PM from United States

It’s not a “luck of the draw” thing, Bob. The problem is that it’s immoral to help one person on the basis of race or gender at the expense of another. There’s a concept called equality.

You just affirmed my belief that people on the left tend to be more racist than those on the right.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 05:20 PM from United States

Ah, yes, Salinger.  The entire crux of my argument that in the past 5 years, all education in this country has been destroyed.  And it was the No Child Left Behind act behind it all!  In fact, the 45 years previous to NCLB, it was actually the anticipation of the NCLB act that made the schools so shitty!  It was NCLB that has robbed many deserving minorities of opportunity through failure to develop their neighborhoods, promote family-centered households, and personal responsibility.  It was NCLB cronies and wannabes that, since the inception of the Civil Rights movement, strove to take control of the movement and stagnate entire segments of the population.  How could I have been so blind! George Bush is certainly an evil Hiter.

Way to miss the entire crux of my argument, Sal.

Posted by salinger on 10/30/06 at 05:28 PM from United States

And you didn’t read the artical if you think it’s only about NCLB.

You’re not willing to do your homework - no wonder your students don’t give a shit.

NCLB is a culmination of programs started by Nixon and then Reagan.

Never mind, it’s just easier to blame the kids.

I work in an Inner City Community College which primarily services the youth from failed inner city high schools, and guess what, they don’t give a shit about learning anything.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 05:31 PM from United States

And if you want to send these kids to private schools for great education, aren’t you essentially saying that the public education system is so broken that the only way these kids can get a decent education is to send them to private schools?

No, no, you misunderstand. I just want to prevent the white kids from getting out of the lousy public schools that they’ll be left with, by filling the private schools with minorities.  The black kids will have the choice of going to the New Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, recently moved from Fairfax into the District, or to Sidwell Friends School.

TJ isn’t broken; it’s substantially better than any private school that I know of.  Btw, Fairfax County has an annual school budget of over a billion dollars. Note that the new TJ will be allowed to accept 1.25% white students, the same percent as it has blacks now.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 05:34 PM from United States

I want to take 90% of the school budgets of the affluent white suburbs and give it to the inner cities, including transferring all the good teachers and expensive equipment

Doesn’t Washington DC have some of the best funded but worst inner city schools in the nation?

Posted by salinger on 10/30/06 at 05:41 PM from United States

And it was the No Child Left Behind act behind it all!

And even if we don’t take into account anything the Republican Party has done before NCLB. And even if the schools were completely screwed before NCLB for whatever reason. So what if NCLB didn’t cause all the problems.

Does this mean we ignore the exponential damage being done by the program? Can you not open your eyes and see the corruption that is dooming every single student in public education because of this program?

Jesus Christ - the fucking house is on fire right now and you and your kind are

A) Too fucking stubborn to turn around and see it.

B) Written it off anyway and see no harm in corporate vultures picking the last meat from the carcass.

Incredible

Posted by dakrat on 10/30/06 at 06:03 PM from United States

Who said anything about money?  I don’t want to add or subtract money, I want to discriminate against white males in favor of women, blacks, and other minorities to approximately the same extent that the latter groups have been discriminated against for the last 200 years. After about 50 years of that, we can reconsider.

In other words this is all about vengeance to you.  It has nothing to do with fairness.  It has nothing to do with being equal.  It’s all about sticking it to the honkey cause Bob’s ancestors may or may not have had something to do with slavery. 

Incredible...Bob thinks everyone in America should suffer because a few people in America had black slaves.

Bob feels bad, so the rest of us should suffer.  Don’t question that.

Posted by dakrat on 10/30/06 at 06:10 PM from United States

I was denied a full-ride scholarship to Penn, tuition, room and board, books, travel, and a gold watch, because I wasn’t female. I was even more qualified than the person who got it, but on the other hand she ended up working in the West Wing. It never even occurred to me to resent it, even when I was working 60-hour weeks in heavy construction to pay for Brown.

I have to call bullshit.  If you were in the running for such a scholarship, then you would have had many other scholarship opportunites.  You certainly wouldn’t have had to work 60 hours a week at a construction job to go to school.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 06:13 PM from United States

That’s just silly. Civil rights, affirmative action, Head Start, ... the list goes on and on, of things created and put in place by Democrats and opposed fiercely by Republicans.

These programs are passive racism telling people that they are “too stupid” to compete on a level playing field.

Look at New Orleans or Detroit. Dem Leadership for 50+ years. What Shit holes! The People who left N.O. after Katrina are never going to go back, because they have JOBS now!

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 06:14 PM from United States

Not Civil Rights above, but the other “Programs” like affimitive action.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 07:09 PM from United States

I have to call bullshit.  If you were in the running for such a scholarship, then you would have had many other scholarship opportunites.

Look it up. West Chester (PA) High School, 50’s and 60’s, full scholarship to Penn for the person with the highest GPA, male and female in alternate years. I did get others, including a full academic scholarship to Michigan State (they gave them to all the Merit Scholars in those days) and a full-ride wrestling scholarship to Lehigh (they told me that it included my choice of cheerleaders).  Brown gave me the equivalent of about $70K in today’s costs and that much again in loans. My parents and I made up the rest.  My safety school, MIT, offered me about the same amounts.

I didn’t mean to imply that I worked 60-hour weeks the whole year: summers only, but the whole summer, from the Monday after school got out to the Saturday before it started up again. One summer spreading tar on roofs, another on a drill rig, and one driving bulldozers, chainsaws, and a shovel to build a golf course. After junior year I got a job programming, and I never looked back.

Posted by HARLEY on 10/30/06 at 07:48 PM from United States

I think it’s strange that the hard-core rightwingers actually believe that. After all, if you meet some guy in a bar and he turns out to be a virulent racist, you’re just naturally going to assume he’s a conservative wingnut, aren’t you?  Sure, there’s a tiny chance that he’s liberal, but the more racist he seems to be, the more likely it is that he’s a screaming fundie republican; that’s just the way to bet.

From my experience, at work and in town, the most vulrant racists have been people that lean to the left.
one after noon at work i learned that a majority of the people i worked with had some very racist attitudes. I was quite shocked, since there were teh ones who were giving me shit about having a Bush bumper sticker, and regaling me with stories of the EVIL of oil companies…
Now the racist comment to me was, “Why don’t you keep them niggers from mixing with the white women over there in missouri? or are all you boys to busy fucking pigs?” my responce was something to teh effect of “ Dont you all have More interracial marriages over here in Quincy? , his response ws, “ NO we keep teh niggers in line over here.” I was fucking shocked and this is not a isolated incident.
most of the hard core racists i have known do tend to lean to the left side of things politically.
but then again the differences between city life and rural life and political affiliation of those that live in such places are not mutually exclusive.

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 07:52 PM from United States

Incredible...Bob thinks everyone in America should suffer because a few people in America had black slaves.

Interesting.  You apparently equate “white male” with “everyone in America.” Do you think that discrimination against blacks ended with Lee’s surrender? Nothing more current?

Bob’s ancestors may or may not have had something to do with slavery.

Nah, the earliest that any of my direct ancestors arrived in this country was around 1875. And for some perverse reason, they all settled in South Dakota.

These programs are passive racism telling people that they are “too stupid” to compete on a level playing field.

In fact they would tell people that we’ve been unfair to them for centuries, and are trying to get back to even.  However, if they think as you do, they can simply decline to participate.
Posted by dakrat on 10/30/06 at 08:47 PM from United States

From my experience, at work and in town, the most vulrant racists have been people that lean to the left.

Just from my experiences most racists I’ve ever known don’t even bother to register to vote or can’t because they’re felons.

Posted by HARLEY on 10/30/06 at 08:54 PM from United States

Just from my experiences most racists I’ve ever known don’t even bother to register to vote or can’t because they’re felons.

Thank Deus for small things eh?

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 09:00 PM from United States

Well bobbles, since my direct ancestors arrived here in the 1950’s I would say we have most likely contributed more than our fair share to reverse racism, oh, excuse me, afirmitive action so people like you can stop feeling guilty about being innocent by-standers co-existing with racism to the south of you.

You don’t have to think me though.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/30/06 at 10:10 PM from United States

Salinger said:

And you didn’t read the artical if you think it’s only about NCLB.

The article?  That’s funny.  It’s a 55 page brief.  And, unfortunately Sal, I’ve got grant proposals to write.

You’re not willing to do your homework - no wonder your students don’t give a shit.

Well, Sal, let’s consider the source.  My argument deals with the 50 years of neglect minorities have endured due to their alliance with the Democratic party.  You’re railing about NCLB and schools and trying to pin the blame of 50 years of failure on George W. Bush. 

NCLB is a culmination of programs started by Nixon and then Reagan.

All programs sought after by the NEA.  These programs do not materialize in a vacuum.  Not to mention that the teachers unions have tremendous say with cirriculum.  But as good as a school is, if a child is living in poverty with one parent while crime is rampant in the neighborhood, that child has additional burdens placed upon them that impede their learning progress.  Environment has much to do with how children learn.  It’s that environment that has been crippling minority excellence.

Sal, I’ve seen inner city teenagers who have been transplanted to private schools outside of the inner city.  They matured rapidly in an environment that promoted growth.  Butt Munch’s grand idea of sending all kids to private school isn’t a bad idea (just impractical to the extreme) because kids learn better in those surroundings.  Teachers teach better.  The cloud of oppression is lifted.

So why do I get lambasted by you and Butt Munch when I say that the best way to change the environment is to ditch the community leaders who have worked so hard to keep the minorities in squalor?

Never mind, it’s just easier to blame the kids.

I don’t blame the kids.  I blame idiots like you who believe Republicans are out to re-enslave the blacks while destroying schools for money.

Does this mean we ignore the exponential damage being done by the program? Can you not open your eyes and see the corruption that is dooming every single student in public education because of this program?

Sal, you’re like a medical resident.  A patient walks in who’s been seen by the Chief of Medicine for 30 years.  The man is sickly, coughing, covered in sores, and has developed kidney and liver failure.  The Chief gives the man what he always has-- two aspirin and some cough drops.  You get all angry and say, “How can you possibly give him cough drops!  Don’t you see the aspirin you’ve been giving him have given him asthma!?” At that point you give the patient an inhaler and send him on his way.

NCLB isn’t the problem or the solution.  The problem is societal.  All the well-meaning education programs we have can only fix educational problems.  They do no deal with external influence.

Jesus Christ - the fucking house is on fire right now and you and your kind are

A) Too fucking stubborn to turn around and see it.

B) Written it off anyway and see no harm in corporate vultures picking the last meat from the carcass. vvv

There are vultures picking meat off of a burning house?

Posted by dakrat on 10/30/06 at 10:20 PM from United States

I didn’t mean to imply that I worked 60-hour weeks the whole year: summers only, but the whole summer, from the Monday after school got out to the Saturday before it started up again. One summer spreading tar on roofs, another on a drill rig, and one driving bulldozers, chainsaws, and a shovel to build a golf course. After junior year I got a job programming, and I never looked back.

That’s more like it.  You did imply that you were working 60 hour weeks constantly just to be in college.  At least that’s how I took it.  Even still, that you were willing to work long and hard to achieve your goals is very admirable and respectable.  You had that internal spark to drive you to success no matter what. 

Now picture if you will the typical, redneck, white trash trailer park.  The typical “family” in this trailer park is dysfunctional at best.  Single parents of either sex.  Apathetic parents of either sex.  Drug and alcohol addicted parents of both sexes.  Unemployment describes 75% all males at any one time.  60% of the children in this trailer park have tried to referee their parents’ violent domestic disputes and have the scars to prove it.  Somewhere in this waste of human filth there is an exceptional boy.  We’ll call him Bubba.  Bubba keeps his nose down, goes to school, holds up in his bedroom when dad is on a drunken rampage.  Bubba holds back the tears because Mom and Dad ain’t there to see him win his school’s science fair. 

Now picture if you will the typical projects.  The typical “family” in this project is dysfunctional at best.  Single parents of either sex.  Apathetic parents of either sex.  Drug and alcohol addicted parents of both sexes.  Unemployment describes 75% all males at any one time.  60% of the children in this project have tried to referee their parents’ violent domestic disputes and have the scars to prove it.  Somewhere in this waste of human filth there is an exceptional boy.  We’ll call him Jamal.  Jamal keeps his nose down, goes to school, holds up in his bedroom when dad is on a drunken rampage.  Jamal holds back the tears because Mom and Dad ain’t there to see him win his school’s science fair. 

Doesn’t Bubba deserve to be out of his hell-hole just as much as Jamal does?  How do we decide who gets a scholarship to MIT?  Perhaps both should, and the suburban kids-both white and black-should get a job at StarBucks to help with their living expenses.  No one really wants to ask these questions.  Everyone just wants to play race cards.  There are a shitload of promising impovershed white kids in trailer parks that don’t get any advantage either. 

Honest discussion is desperately needed.  I hold little hope for that when liberals are screaming RACISTS, and the conservatives are screaming REVERSE RACISM!

I believe the real question isn’t racism or reverse racism.  The real question is, “How do we cultivate more Bubbas in the trailer park, and how do we cultivate more Jamals in the projects?”

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 11:47 PM from Australia

I believe the real question isn’t racism or reverse racism.  The real question is, “How do we cultivate more Bubbas in the trailer park, and how do we cultivate more Jamals in the projects?”

I agree, and the politics of blame aren’t helping anyone. Sometimes I think the best choice is to strip the babies off them at birth and give them to parents with a chance (there’s plenty of gays not doing very much in the parenting stakes, why not give them a shot).

Posted by on 10/30/06 at 11:49 PM from Australia

grand idea of sending all kids to private school isn’t a bad idea (just impractical to the extreme)

The UK is now at the point where it costs more to educate a child at a state school than at a public school (what you would call a private school). If you completely abolished the department of education, sacked all the employees and all the teachers, and then converted its budget into school vouchers, you’d have enough to educate every kid in the system at a mid-range public school. Give it another 5 years of New Labour and you’d have enough to send them all to Harrow or Rugby.

Posted by salinger on 10/31/06 at 08:02 AM from United States

All programs sought after by the NEA.

not trueHere’s an article written under the auspices of the NEA.

A snippet from the article giving the gist:

The National Education Association supports the goals of the so-called “No Child Left Behind” (NCLB) Act, including closing the achievement gap and ensuring that all students are held to high expectations of learning.

But the law was developed by politicians and bureaucrats, while the many recommendations by teachers, education support professionals, administrators, and others went ignored.

Not to mention that the teachers unions have tremendous say with cirriculum.

Not true.
Snippit;

Marietta English, president of the Baltimore Teachers Union, said the union has received complaints about Studio from at least half the city’s middle schools. She said teachers had “no input in the selection of the curriculum” and that some teachers did not learn about it until the first day of school

I can provide hundreds of these examples.

SO, first off - let’s not muddy the waters any more with patently false statements. We are a lot closer to agreeing than not. I understand the living conditions of the inner city have just as much if not more to do with students achievement. Believe me, I drive those streets regularly picking kids up to take them to extracurricular programs. I see the neighborhoods; I see everything stacked against them. Sometimes the only hope for any sanity and structure in their lives is in the school – I would recommend the writings of Alfred Tatum in this regard.

So here’s another analogy (and I’ll try not to mix metaphors). The schools should be a safe haven, a sanctuary where young people can grow socially and intellectually – a fortress against the harshness of their environment. Now, along comes a program that starts to knock down the ramparts of this fortress, takes the weapons away from the soldiers protecting this fort. Do you realize this program is doing damage, or do you bemoan the outside forces being let in?  The schools are a chance for people from within these degraded environs to improve their lot and in doing so improve their environs. I think we have a similar goal, a better lot in life for inner city populations – I think we should start with the schools.

Posted by Nethicus on 10/31/06 at 08:14 AM from United States

Now, along comes a program that starts to knock down the ramparts of this fortress, takes the weapons away from the soldiers protecting this fort. Do you realize this program is doing damage, or do you bemoan the outside forces being let in?  The schools are a chance for people from within these degraded environs to improve their lot and in doing so improve their environs. I think we have a similar goal, a better lot in life for inner city populations – I think we should start with the schools.

You can’t seperate the school from the environment.  Much learning is done outside of school, with homework, sports, etc.  If the outside environment is stable, it will assist school performance.

Notice I’ve never defended NCLB.  I just said that it’s a bandaid on a gunshot wound.  You suggest it’s an infected band-aid-- that may be possible.  The real results will be down the line 10-15 years from now.  And my prediction is that the results will not be anything good or bad in either direction.

The major problem is Federal involvement in the schools at all.  I think education is best decided at a local level as it’s the at the local level where the kids learn.

Posted by salinger on 10/31/06 at 08:20 AM from United States

I think education is best decided at a local level as it’s the at the local level where the kids learn.

Here we agree.

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