Right Thinking From The Left Coast
Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. - Yoda

Beat Box
by Lee

Reason discusses the ongoing beatification process for the late Pope John Paul II.

Second, and more immediately, Pope Benedict--supposedly a by-the-book-sort guy--has already bent the rules for his predecessor, waiving the five-year waiting period after death for the beatification process to begin. To which any Catholic--past, present, future, or perpetual--really has to ask: If the Baseball Hall of Fame could wait five years after Cal Ripken’s retirement before voting him in, where does the Vicar of Christ on Earth get off? This would be like inducting The Strokes into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame after the release of their debut.

Sadly, all too true.  I was a great fan of the late pope.  For the majority of my life he was “the” pope, and when he died it was in many ways like losing a family member.  But, come on.  The way they’re bending all their own rules to get him admitted into the Super Awesome Club is pretty disgraceful.

John Paul II’s life and legacy are great enough that the Vatican shouldn’t need to use tricks and points of parliamentary procedure.  He earned what he earned, there’s no need to rush it.

Posted by Lee on 03/30/07 at 08:59 AM (Discuss this in the forums)

Comments


Posted by on 03/30/07 at 10:15 AM from United States

Personally, I can’t consider the any mouthpiece for an organization as corrupt at the catholic church to worthy for any adulation.

For the life of me, I can’t fathom why the media even pays any attention to the pope - he’s not relevant, not even to the majority of the catholics.  Papal decrees are generally ignored by the rank and file catholic if they happen to find them inconvenient, and I’ve yet to find anyone that isn’t thoroughly disillusioned and disgusted by the long tradition of hiding perverts in the church.

Rather than lauding the various popes for what good they may have done, why not pay equal attention to what good they decided to skip out on and what genuine evil they aided?

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 10:30 AM from United States

The pope has almost no signifigance in my life.

I agree with SO. For the vast majority of US Catholics, his decrees are meaningless. Most only have ties to the faith because of tradition anyway. This BS about birth control has to be the most ignorant, most detached from reality position he has and is probably a big reason why a lot of Catholics ignore him.

And frankly, the boy fucking issue should be the end of the church as far as I’m concerned.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 10:48 AM from United States

My wife is “catholic” in as much as she picks and chooses what she wants and likes about the religion and generally only goes to mass when she “finds a priest she likes”, which means weddings and funerals only for the last decade.

She has major issues with priests not being able to marry, the pervert issue, men-only priesthood, birth control, the obvious wealth of the vatican and the abject poverty of many catholics worldwide, abusive nuns running schools, etc, etc.  I keep telling her that in reality she’s an episcopalian.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 11:06 AM from United States

All I have to say is......."wow"!

Ignorance is truth.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 11:14 AM from United States

Funny you say that, episcopalians been called “A la Cart” catholics for ever, in that they pick and choose what they want from the Catholic menu.  Being episcopalian, i agree, I love the service and socially progressive aspect of my church.  However, that’s under fire right now, and the Conservative Anglicans are about to split off. 
The only thing keeping them together is money and as usual, the liberal side has more… an interesting site to look at any of this is: (if you’re interested) is getreligion.org.
A conservative catholic bent, but open and smart, and well written.  It’s worth checking out.

Posted by Capmeister on 03/30/07 at 11:26 AM from United States

You’re upset that the arbitrary rules are being arbitrarily changed to different arbitrary rules?

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 11:49 AM from United States

doubter4444 - about a year and half ago my wife ran into an episcopalian priest and his wife while having dinner on a business trip, and I swear she almost converted that night.

They also gave her the yummiest banana cream pie to take home that I’ve ever had....

Posted by Manwhore on 03/30/07 at 11:54 AM from United States

Funny you say that, episcopalians been called “A la Cart” catholics for ever, in that they pick and choose what they want from the Catholic menu.  Being episcopalian, i agree, I love the service and socially progressive aspect of my church.  However, that’s under fire right now, and the Conservative Anglicans are about to split off. 
The only thing keeping them together is money and as usual, the liberal side has more… an interesting site to look at any of this is: (if you’re interested) is

Wow, another one? My mom’s family was episcopalian and the fathers was Catholic. The services are almost identical. I think it’s called the church of England in england.

I’ve always thought Episcoplians had a far more laid back viewpoint on many things that the other faiths. It’s really sad when I see the Gay Bishop issues, and women bishop issues. It truly is one of the only progressive and fair denominations out there.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 12:21 PM from United States

My brother is an Episcopal priest. So is my brother-in-law. It’s basically all the ceremonies of the Catholic church with half the guilt. It’s realtively socially liberal. There are some more conservative factions though.

Posted by Manwhore on 03/30/07 at 12:26 PM from United States

My brother is an Episcopal priest. So is my brother-in-law. It’s basically all the ceremonies of the Catholic church with half the guilt. It’s realtively socially liberal. There are some more conservative factions though.

I didn’t know until I was an adult, but we even have confession. you have to schedule it with the priest and its done a little differently, but very much confession.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 12:28 PM from United States

I have 24/7 “dial-a-priest”. :-)

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 12:46 PM from United States

Episcopalian’s are the Church of England in America.

It’s a great church, if what you want is the trappings of history and a real “churchy-ness” to your church, but feel that socially progressive thinking is important.

Very Liberal, by the way...but again, in a churchy way...against the war because war itself is wrong, for the environment because we owe the debt to future generations and all that. 
I kinda want my church to be against killing and pollution, call me what ever you like. 
My particular rector could even be considered leaning Libertarian: he distrusts the state to do things for the good of the people, but knows that individuals are inherently out for themselves… and the intersection of those is where government enters. 

For the most part we don’t try to stick our head in the sand, but confront issues reasonably head-on (it is still a church, after all).

Still the impending schism is depressing, because good people truly disagree on the issues you mention above, Manwhore. 
If the council agreed to the conservative side’s pov, it would basically make the church Catholic, just without a pope.
Interestingly the most conservative wing of the church is strongest in it’s newest converts, from Africa where the Anglican church has made headway… where are the Catholics missionaries down there?

Posted by Manwhore on 03/30/07 at 05:39 PM from United States

If the council agreed to the conservative side’s pov, it would basically make the church Catholic, just without a pope.

Every bit as repressive too. It’s really sad to see that faith come so far in this century rationalizing with the world around them and find out that bigots and fanatics still need to be coddled within the faith. It one of the only bastions of American christian faiths that I would ever be able to identify with in its most current form.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 06:14 PM from Canada

John Paul II’s life and legacy are great enough that the Vatican shouldn’t need to use tricks and points of parliamentary procedure.  He earned what he earned, there’s no need to rush it.

His legacy is the legacy of tens of thousands, if not millions, of dead people in Africa and around the world because of the absurd Catholic stance on the use of contraception.

He was not an evil man, but his actions and inactions have killed many more people than most evil people who have walked the earth.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 08:25 PM from United States

It’s always easy to agree with those who agree with you, and in this case Manwhore, you are right. 
What attracted me to the church was the fact that it had a beautiful service and a lot of what i considered “traditional” trapping, and also it had a message was that establishment types could think wider and about things that mattered to me.

I remembering see my priest privately on two occasions:  first, I did not agree with the part of the Nicene creed that said “We believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
He looked at me (who was about 70 at the time and had gone to Yale with GB41, as a matter that doesn’t matter but is interesting) and said, “so don’t say it”.  “If you have a problem with the word Catholic, skip that part”. 
He said the word carries a lot of weight, does not necessarily mean the Catholic church right now.... so he essentially said, it the totality of the belief that you have, not the particular.
It was that moment that I was hooked.
The second time I thought I got my girl friend pregnant.  She was a shrew, and as it turned out lying.  That’s another story.  But he looked at and pulled out a cigarette, lit it and sighed.  I was about 30, I guess, and again he was at least 75. 
He asked if I was sure.  I said no.  He said “Find out for sure, and you’ll know how you feel”
That he’s seen this drama happening for 40 years.  And there was no right answer.  It turned out it was a false alarm....but (much) later when my girlfriend got pregnant, I knew what he meant.  We have a 3 1/2 years old and another one due soon.  So, for what it’s worth, the dissolution of something that seemed to have filled a gap for educated, urban, liberal (I say that in a socially liberal sense, that is) people that could see through the smoke of Catholicism and just could not ascribe to the rigidity of fundies...the Episcopalians were literally, a god send.

Posted by on 03/30/07 at 09:05 PM from United States

Boy, all these sappy plaudits in the name of religion, coming from a group who usely knocks each other into the cheap seats just to be the first in line to throw their invectives and platitudes. You guys, quit it, I’m getting all misty.

Posted by on 04/01/07 at 12:46 AM from United States

Padders, how is a pope responsible for people’s death regarding sexually transmitted diseases. The full blame for the deaths is resoundingly on the people who had sex with multiple partners, not a fucking pope in vatican city. If africans didn’t try to devirginize 14 year old girls aids wouldn’t be prevalent in those countries would it?
How can you blame a great man like the Pope for actions of africans, truly asinine.

Posted by on 04/01/07 at 01:53 AM from Canada

Padders, how is a pope responsible for people’s death regarding sexually transmitted diseases. The full blame for the deaths is resoundingly on the people who had sex with multiple partners, not a fucking pope in vatican city. If africans didn’t try to devirginize 14 year old girls aids wouldn’t be prevalent in those countries would it?
How can you blame a great man like the Pope for actions of africans, truly asinine.

The devirignise 14 year olds to cure AIDS actually shows you the root of it, educational igorance as to what AIDS is, what causes it etc.

You combine that ignorance and a moral ban on the most effective way to fight AIDS (there is next to zero evidence that abstanation education/programs works in any country it has been tried in), being condoms and it is pretty clear where the blame is.

But then the catholic church has always been on the worng side of science and social changes and it is hardly surprising that this hastn’t changed, it is just a shame that in this generation we get to see instituionalised child rape at the same time as a moral policy that directly results in a lot of dead people.

You can continue to think the Pope was a great man, and in a lot of ways he was. He certanily was not evil, but when you are part of a fundamentalist religion, good people with good intentions can make policy and actions that result in a lot harm. The pope has certainly done a lot more harm than your average muslim terrorist, even if he was a “good” person.

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