Right Thinking From The Left Coast
Do, or do not. There is no 'try'. - Yoda

Uncivil War
by Lee

Some of the BushBots have been assailing me lately, claiming that I hysterically overreacted to claims of sectarian violence in Iraq.  Well, welcome to the revolution.

Violence since Wednesday’s bombing of a Shi’ite shrine in Iraq has killed 379 people and wounded 458, the government said in a statement on Tuesday, denying reports that the toll was much higher.

Reprisal attacks on Sunni mosques and other sectarian bloodshed has pushed Iraq to the brink of civil war and officials have been trying to play down the extent of violence.

Suspected al Qaeda militants destroyed the Golden Mosque in Samarra, sparking tit-for-tat reprisals in the gravest crisis since U.S. forces invaded in 2003.

In an unusual statement, issued in English, the office of Prime Minister Ibrahim Al-Jaafari, said media reports that the death toll was well over 1,000 were “inaccurate and exaggerated.”

Okay, so 1,000 people dead over six days.  That’s the beginning of a civil war, folks.  The only thing preventing Iraq from turning into Beirut is the presence of the US military, and I don’t even know how long that will prevent it.

Posted by Lee on 02/28/06 at 08:39 PM (Discuss this in the forums)

Comments


Posted by on 02/28/06 at 09:48 PM from United States

Meh, I’m still sticking by what I said in the Gold Metal Bush comments.

I don’t think it’s impending in the sense that it might break out at any time, I do feel it’s a realistic possibility though, one that needs to be taken seriously.

Posted by mikeguas on 02/28/06 at 09:57 PM from United States

I don’t think I can blame Bush for some assholes who blew up a mosque. I will say this though, I have never believed in nation building, and this is why. We won the war in a couple of months. We found Saddam, and his fucked up sons. We should have left then. When in war, you beat the shit out of your enemy, then leave. Let them get up off the ground on their own. Also, choose your fights wisely.

Posted by West Virginia Rebel on 02/28/06 at 09:57 PM from United States

If there is a civil war, what do we do if our troops get caught in the middle like they were in Somalia? (Not the same thing, I know, but still...) Do we relocate most of our forces to the Kurd-controlled North? Pull out completely and give the Democrats what they want?

I have been a supporter of this effort and I know we have made tremendous progress there. I would hate to see it all destroyed by this.

Posted by on 02/28/06 at 11:13 PM from United States

So Lee, with civil war all but certain, do you still think it was a good idea to go in?  I’m not referring to our lack of an exit strategy either.

Another thing.  Why is it if someone disagrees with you on something regarding Bush, they are automatically a Bush Bot?  Yes, they do exist (Sean Hannity, anyone), but I don’t see a wide-spread amount on this site.

Posted by Drumwaster on 02/28/06 at 11:15 PM from United States

So Lee, with civil war all but certain, do you still think it was a good idea to go in?

Because they were ohsopeaceful before under Saddam, eh?

Posted by on 02/28/06 at 11:21 PM from United States

Why is Iraq taking so long to execute Hussein and to form its new democratically elected government. Some times those guys over there seem so stupid, we shouldn’t help them for that reason.

Posted by Lee on 02/28/06 at 11:26 PM from United States

So Lee, with civil war all but certain, do you still think it was a good idea to go in?  I’m not referring to our lack of an exit strategy either.

Yeah, absolutely.  I think that, under the circumstances, taking out Saddam was prudent and appropriate and the right thing to do.  That being said, I think that the administration has completely fucked up the objective by not having a post-war plan in place.  I don’t expect perfection by any means, but I think it can’t be denied that gross incompetence on the part of the Bush team is primarily responsible for the fact that we damn near have a civil war on our hands. 

So, that being said, the question then becomes, if I was to know beforehand how bad the post-war was going to be mangled, would I support the war?  That’s a tough question and I don’t know if I have an answer.  As I said in a previous post, the hamfisted implementation of the war on terror by the Bush team has taken a task that was going to be really, really difficult and turned it into a complete goatfuck.  It’s a tough call.

Another thing.  Why is it if someone disagrees with you on something regarding Bush, they are automatically a Bush Bot?

That’s not the standard for being a BushBot at all.  A BushBot is someone for whom ideals and principles mean nothing, only fealty to Bush and his administration.  Here’s a good rule of thumb to determine if you’re a BushBot.  Take any controversial issue that Bush is involved in.  Now imagine Bill Clinton had made the same decision.  Be honest with yourself: would you support the decision if Clinton had made it?  Here’s a few suggestions.

1) Almost 5 years after 9/11 OBL is still at large.  Would you accept Clinton’s excuses?

2) The disaster that is Iraq.  Would you be excusing Clinton’s piss poor post-war plannin?

3) The massive expansion of government.  Would you be screaming about what a big-government liberal Clinton was?

4) The UAE port deal.  Would you have simply graciously accepted Clinton’s claims that there was nothing to worry about?

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.  When Bush acts completely antithetical to conservative beliefs, and you support him for doing it, then you’re a BushBot.

Posted by on 02/28/06 at 11:43 PM from United States

Because they were ohsopeaceful before under Saddam, eh?

Drum, I wasn’t asking that in an “ah ha” type manner.  I was asking because I was honestly interested in what Lee thought.

Personally, back before the war started I was against it.  But once it started, I rooted for our guys and I want our guys to get the job done, no matter how long it takes.

Posted by on 02/28/06 at 11:50 PM from United States

Now you see, Lee.  That’s how you should respond:) No insults or anything like that:-P

Anyways, I deffinantly agree with you there.  That’s why I can’t stand Sean Hannity and one of many reasons why I can’t stand Anne Coulter.  Personally, I think the only kind of conservative Bush is is a social conservative.  He’s done a piss-poor job regarding our borders, he spends like a liberal, and he doesn’t seem to have much of a problem with big government.

Here’s a thought.  Imagion, if you will, if on a certain weekend us conservatives did what we normally dont’ do.....protest.  Go to washington and state that if the republicans in congress dont’ start acting like real republicans, that we will vote for someone from a third party.  Sure, some may say that it’s throwing the vote away if we were to do that, but if enough people did it, then what a statement that would be.  Plus, you know politicians can’t stand to lose votes, especially from their base.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 12:07 AM from United States

How come you guys don’t like Anne Couler? I have only read her articals and find her funny in a satirical way, just curious.

I think a civil war is inevitable due to the extra help from the outside.  If Saddam would have been taken out any other way Iraq would be a bigger mess with more of what is happening now.I have lost faith in Bush and the GOP is worthless these days. I still hope we can get our troops out with a positive but we will see.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 12:12 AM from United States

Anne Coulter is a hateful person.  She is basically every stereotypes of conservatives that liberals make wrapped all into one package.  She’s a “replubicans can do know wrong” person.  She talks like an elitist ("everyone who disagrees with me is a moron"). She’s Michael Weiner...I mean Savage with tits.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 12:32 AM from United States

OK. Fair enough. She is faling off the GOP wagaon and bashed Bush on the ports deal in her latest column.

Posted by HARLEY on 03/01/06 at 05:54 AM from United States

Well since ALQuadia/Iran is sponsoring one side, i don’t see how a situation like this can be avoided.

It would be like British funding and supporting a confederate insurgency from Mexico after the Union invaded.

Until Iran, Syria and AlQuadia are squashed, this type of violence will continue…
but notice where the majority of the action is taking place.
As for your 4 pints Lee, I agree with you, but once you look behind the MSM bullshit and the piss poor Bush PR and see what is really happing you get a different picture.
I don’t think this is gonna turn into a full blown civil war, AlQuadia is getting Desperate, look at the change in tactics over the last 3 years.

Posted by Aaron - Free Will on 03/01/06 at 06:43 AM from United States

Change in tactics:

Salim Rashid, 34, a Shiite laborer in an overwhelmingly Sunni Arab village 20 miles north of Baghdad, received his eviction notice Friday from a man at the door with a rocket launcher.

“It’s 6 p.m.,” Rashid recounted the masked man saying then, as retaliatory violence between Shiites and Sunnis exploded across wide swaths of central Iraq. “We want you out of here by 8 p.m. tomorrow. If we find you here, we will kill you.”

Walking, hitchhiking and hiring cars, the Rashid clan and many of the 25 other families evicted from the town of Mishada had made their way by Tuesday to a youth center in Baghdad’s heavily Shiite neighborhood of Shoula. There, other people forced from their homes were already sharing space on donated mattresses.

Well, Islam was fun while it lasted. Shame it went all “Mad Max” on us.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 06:54 AM from United States

The problem is Bush wants to be all things to all people and winds up being nothing..He knows he has to kiss everybodys ass nowadays..so this is what you wind up with.If Bush went Reagan what would happen? The press would shit then the gutless moderate republicans in congress would flee and not support em and then the indies in the middle would vote D in the next elections and that would be that..McCain will pull pretty much the same thing cause he is gonna have to suck up too so please spare me all the tough talk and all the kissy face press cause five minutes after he gets in he will be Hitler the sequel

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 07:35 AM from United States

Violence since Wednesday’s bombing of a Shi’ite shrine in Iraq has killed 379 people and wounded 458, the government said in a statement on Tuesday, denying reports that the toll was much higher.

Okay, so 1,000 people dead over six days.  That’s the beginning of a civil war, folks.

Umm but it doesn’t appear that 1000 are dead, any more then 10,000+ died in NO with Katrina.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 08:22 AM from United States

1) Almost 5 years after 9/11 OBL is still at large.  Would you accept Clinton’s excuses?

2) The disaster that is Iraq.  Would you be excusing Clinton’s piss poor post-war plannin?

3) The massive expansion of government.  Would you be screaming about what a big-government liberal Clinton was?

4) The UAE port deal.  Would you have simply graciously accepted Clinton’s claims that there was nothing to worry about?

1. Elaborate

2. Many of Bush’s moves in Iraq pissed me off to no end, it would obviously be the same with Clinton. But I’d be willing to give Clinton the same credit as Bush even with this level of performance.

3. Clinton’s a big government liberal, Bush is a big government conservative. Obviously big government liberalism is worse, but they both suck. Bush’s big spending is easily one of the biggest wrongs of his administration, and it pisses me off to no end.

4. Didn’t accept Bush’s claims on the basis of trusting him, wouldn’t do it with Clinton.

I would hope this doesn’t make me a Bush bot O_o.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 09:21 AM from United States

This is all just more media frenzy, only this time it happens to fall in line with Lee’s view.

I think our host has a mild case of BDS.  It hasn’t spread too far.  Yet.

I’ll tell you what…

Let’s revisit this in 2 weeks.  If the violence levels are the same or higher in 2 weeks from now - I’ll eat my words.

If they are lower - I challenge Lee to eat his words.

TV (Harry)

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 09:34 AM from Japan

If they are lower - I challenge Lee to eat his words.

And what happens to you if you are wrong??

Posted by Lee on 03/01/06 at 09:58 AM from United States

Let’s revisit this in 2 weeks.  If the violence levels are the same or higher in 2 weeks from now - I’ll eat my words.

If they are lower - I challenge Lee to eat his words.

When did I say that it was going to happen in 2 weeks?  It might take six months.  I just think that there is no cohesion between any of the factions in Iraq, and that preventing them from killing each other is a virtually insurmountable task.

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 10:01 AM from United States

Let’s revisit this in 2 weeks.  If the violence levels are the same or higher in 2 weeks from now - I’ll eat my words.

Looks like he covered that, stogy.

--TR

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 10:10 AM from Japan

Looks like he covered that, stogy.

{slaps self awake}

Posted by on 03/01/06 at 01:34 PM from United States

Clinton’s a big government liberal, Bush is a big government conservative. Obviously big government liberalism is worse, but they both suck.

I disagree.  Big government conservatism is worse.

First, from a purely political perspective, liberals can’t get big government programs enacted but conservatives can (the “only Nixon could go to China” element).  So, big government liberals lead to lot’s of proposals and few laws.  Big gov conservatives lead to big programs.

Second, on the ideological front, when the rhetoric of small government is used to justify socialism, it destroys the power of that rhetoric. How much harder will it be to convince people in the future that anyone is serious about limited government.  They are killing the power of concepts in public dialogue by twisting and abusing them for temporary gain.

Posted by on 03/02/06 at 05:41 AM from United States

Hey Lee, you got a follow up to this post? I mean, I’m still waiting for Iraq to blow up and descend into anarchy.

Either you’re buying the media’s “civil war” mantra that they’re pushing or your hatred for Bush is just oozing into every corpuscle you need to castigate him any chance you get...then you defend the guy in regards to the San Francisco loons. Make up your mind.

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