Right Thinking From The Left Coast
We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time. - Vince Lombardi

Understanding Evil
by Lee

Okay, this pisses me off.

The Prince of Wales will try to persuade George W Bush and Americans of the merits of Islam this week because he thinks the United States has been too intolerant of the religion since September 11.

The Prince, who leaves on Tuesday for an eight-day tour of the US, has voiced private concerns over America’s “confrontational” approach to Muslim countries and its failure to appreciate Islam’s strengths.

The Prince raised his concerns when he met senior Muslims in London in November 2001. The gathering took place just two months after the attacks on New York and Washington. “I find the language and rhetoric coming from America too confrontational,” the Prince said, according to one leader at the meeting.

It is understood that Prince Charles did not - and does not - believe that the actions of 19 hijackers should tarnish the reputation of hundreds of millions of law-abiding Muslims around the world.

Khalid Mahmood, the Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Bar, was also at the meeting at St James’s Palace. “His criticism of America was a general one of the Americans not having the appreciation we have for Islam and its culture,” he said.

I’m not so much upset at Charles for his opinion, he’s the crown prince to a nation full of Muslims and as such he’s entitled to represent their opinion, no matter how much I might disagree with it.  What I’m sick of hearing is this idea, stated perfectly above by Khalid Mahmood, that Americans are somehow ignorant of Islam’s virtues, the implication being that if only we Americans weren’t so isolated and ignorant of the outside world that we wouldn’t have these problems. 

So, America doesn’t appreciate Islam or its culture?  Fine, let’s accept that as true.  Why is it always incumbent upon America (or the West) to understand and appreciate Islam?  Where is the great appreciation for Western culture and values in the Islamic world?  Every university in the United States and Europe will have an Eastern or Middle Eastern studies department.  Where, in the Islamic world’s institutions of learning (such as they are) do we find comparable Western studies?  Where are the professors explaining to their students the value of multi-ethnic, pluralistic, secular, democratic society?  Why is there not a single internationally regarded institute of higher learning anywhere in the Islamic world? 

There are Islamic mosques all over the place in America; how many Christian churches or Jewish synagogues are there in Saudi Arabia?  How many western foreigners choose voluntarily to establish permanent residency in the Islamic world, not counting oil workers?  Conversely, how many Muslims choose to move to the secular West? 

Where is the Arab regard for the freedom of the press?  The West provides opportunities for Muslims to make their voices heard through “civil rights” groups like CAIR.  Where are the comparable groups in the Middle East who are able to speak out whenever America or Europe are defamed in the Arab media?  When a prominent American religious leader like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson speaks ill of Islam he is rightfully excoriated by the press and the American people; in the Middle East their religious leaders are funded by the various theocratic states and encouraged to preach hate against the West.

What, exactly, is there for Americans to understand about Islam?  That what is ostensibly a major world religion has been hijacked by radicalized thugs, who use the abject ignorance of the Islamic world to further their totalitarian agenda?  That Islam provides a vehicle by which its adherents believe that strapping bombs to their bodies and detonating them in Israeli shopping centers will somehow get them a front row ticket to Paradise?  That the intentional, overt targeting of civilians by armed guerilla groups is somehow virtuous?  This a region which has no respect for women, minorities, people of other faiths, or indeed anyone who doesn’t buy into the fascist objectives of the Islamist movement.  They have no problem killing as many of their own coreligionists as necessary, provided it is done in furtherance of their despotic ends. 

Look at the London bombings.  These weren’t carried out by ignorant, back woods Muslims, born in poverty and educated in the madrassas. The evil individuals who took it upon themselves to attack decent British society were almost all born and raised in the UK.  In addition, after the London bombings 2/3 of British Muslims surveyed stated that they had some degree of sympathy for the bombers and their objectives.

To put it bluntly, exactly what the fuck is it about the Middle East or Islam that I’m just not getting?  If there is a lack of understanding by anyone, it sure as hell isn’t on the part of the United States.  Perhaps Prince Charles’ time would be better spent hobnobbing with the turban-wearing fascists, explaining to their excellencies why the great Western culture and civilization he will one day reign over deserves protection and understanding.

If the Islamic world actually offered us anything of value we might have more of a desire to respect and understand it.

Posted by Lee on 10/30/05 at 01:51 PM (Discuss this in the forums)

Comments


Posted by on 10/30/05 at 04:20 PM from United States

I’m not so much upset at Charles for his opinion, he’s the crown prince to a nation full of Muslims and as such he’s entitled to represent their opinion, no matter how much I might disagree with it.

Get this straight: He’s not “representing their opinion” as monarch of a (soon to be) Muslim nation. He’s representing their opinion as a spineless pratt who’s appeasing those muslims because he’s scared shitless of riling them up…

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 04:26 PM from United States

Lee, everytime you read something like this, you need to remember that for however much you criticize President Bush for [INSERT REASON HERE], the fact of the matter is he’s one of the few leaders to be right on this issue, about fighting these scum instead of bowing to our Islamofascist overloards.

And as far as I am concerned, that buys plenty of credit with me, enough to withstand a Harriet Miers, or a Katrina.

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 04:37 PM from United States

To put it bluntly, exactly what the fuck is it about the Middle East or Islam that I’m just not getting?

That Islam is the selfish spoiled brat of world religions.

Its followers expect everybody be sensitive and respectful of their beliefs, but they Islam should not have to do the same for the other religions of the world. It only is this fundamental selfishness that can justify preaching the eradication of the Jews and Western society in general from what they percieve as their land, while also demanding that the West accomodate all of their religious wants and needs.

Posted by Lee on 10/30/05 at 04:42 PM from United States

And as far as I am concerned, that buys plenty of credit with me, enough to withstand a Harriet Miers, or a Katrina.

What, so it’s an either/or thing?  If I think Bush has been right in terms of his vision for the Middle East I have to sit complacently while he pisses hundreds of billions of dollars away on fiscal recklessness?  Remember, I voted for Bush twice, the second time primarily on national security concerns.  If the election were held tomorrow I’d still vote for him.  That doesn’t mean, though, that he gets a free pass on everything else.

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 04:55 PM from United States

What, so it’s an either/or thing?  If I think Bush has been right in terms of his vision for the Middle East I have to sit complacently while he pisses hundreds of billions of dollars away on fiscal recklessness?  Remember, I voted for Bush twice, the second time primarily on national security concerns.  If the election were held tomorrow I’d still vote for him.  That doesn’t mean, though, that he gets a free pass on everything else.

Nope, it isn’t.  What I mean is that I think he’s generally right on the issue that is most important to me. And because of that, I’m apt to cut him some slack in those other areas. That doesn’t amount to a free pass. That does mean I’ll be willing to give him benefit of the doubt though.

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 05:29 PM from United States

Lee, I completely agree with you on this.

I lived in London for eight years and traveled around quite a bit.  I certainly NEVER saw any effort by the Royal Family to advertize the merits of Islam.

If you think about it, why would the future head of the Church of England extol the merits of Islam?  Why doesn’t Prince Charles put a good word in for Catholics and Jews whilst he is over here.  No, that would be too insulting to Islam, I suppose.

Perhaps Charles can discuss with Americans what it would have been like, if his ex-wife Diana had gone ahead and married a Muslim… her controversial lover Dodi Fayed.  Oh, yeah, he is dead.  And there are actually Brits who think the Royal family had her killed, to avoid a situation where the future heirs to the throne had muslim half-brothers!

I personally think that is bonkers thinking… but so it goes in England.

Perhaps Charles should spend less time attending his buddy the Prince of Brunei’s lavish birthday parties… and more time at the mosque himself.  Then he would get a clue.

I agree this is insulting to Americans.  Afterall, one of the first things you see when you leave JFK and drive into Manhattan is a large mosque!  Bet most foreign visitors never would have thought of that.

And I personally just drove through Wayland, MA today… and lo and behold… a giant new mosque gleams across the street from a ... hold it… a temple where JEWS worship! Shocker.

No thanks, Charles.  Give it a rest.

Posted by Helo on 10/30/05 at 06:05 PM from United States

Wouldn’t it be nice if people stopped trying to stand up for those who want to see us dead?

This country was founded on people who put politics second to making sure the best interests of their community came first. Representatives hiked to their regional or national office, and then came back and worked on the farm for the rest of the 10 months of the year.

Professional politicians will be our undoing. I know it’s a fact of life that we have professional politicos, and I’m far past the point of bitching about it, but I just think it’s whack. Professional politicians want to make everyone happy first, and then do their job second.

Now you’ll excuse me while I go back to reading amazingly interesting cases on FindLaw.

Posted by mooresucksass on 10/30/05 at 06:10 PM from United States

Lee, that was a totally harsh analysis of Islam.... and 100% accurate.  Couldn’t agree with you more.

<i>The truth hurts… Prince Charles is a pussy trying to avoid feeling pain

Posted by Helo on 10/30/05 at 06:28 PM from United States

Lee, that was a totally harsh analysis of Islam.... and 100% accurate.

Exactly! Now, before I stick my head through a plate glass window and kill myself, am I the only person who can compare this to the mayor of a city saying, “You’re being too harsh on the Bloods and the Crips. They’re people, too, you animals!”

Posted by West Virginia Rebel on 10/30/05 at 06:50 PM from United States

Chuckie, like most of the Royals, is absolutely useless. Didn’t he supposedly convert to Sufi Islam? Chucklehead has been trying to stay relevant since his wife died. Tony Blair, who gets it, must be laughing his ass off over this one.

Posted by bb on 10/30/05 at 07:02 PM from United States

I’ve lived in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and New York City.  I know all one needs to know about Islam.

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 07:43 PM from United States

stogy, get your “muslim friends” to respond.
Leslie, FaidAndBalanced. Please expand and explain further on Lee’s analysis.

That what is ostensibly a major world religion has been hijacked by radicalized thugs, who use the abject ignorance of the Islamic world to further their totalitarian agenda?

This has troubled me. Has the religion REALLY been “hijacked”, or has it always been this way? Was there peaceful days in the Middle East, or has there always been bloodshed of some kind, with the very motive being religious in origin? Seems to me it has always been this way. The only hijacking I’ve seen is Islam moving into the realm of World Politics. That is what’s being hijacked… not to mention planes.
Has Islam really been hijacked by radicals?

Posted by InsipiD on 10/30/05 at 10:22 PM from United States

Chaz needs to keep his mouth shut.  If I want to listen to a spoiled, irrelevant royal talk about something, I’ll call up Ted Kennedy.

And as I said before, in the immortal words of Jerry Lee Lewis, “Aingland can kiss my ayuss!” (Thanks on the spelling.)

Posted by on 10/30/05 at 11:49 PM from United States

Pampered-ass Princy says our language is too confrontational. I say Muslim bombs are to confront-fucking-tational.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:31 AM from United States

I appologize to Poosh, and any other British reader who feels like we do who may be offended by this, but I have to say it.....FUCK CHARLES!!  Fucking pampered rich boy that has never had to want for anything in his life, and has a whole country’s military protecting him, telling us that we need to be more tolerant.  FUCK HIM!!!

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:39 AM from United States

America is the most cosmopolitan and accepting culture on the planet - we take in anyone and everyone and let them mix in with the rest of us.  To not be accepted you pretty much have to decide to isolate yourself and decide you hate where you are at.

Go to any large city and take a look around - every color of the rainbow with every faith (or lack of it) working together and intermarrying.  Prince Chuck can just go pound sand....

Posted by mikeguas on 10/31/05 at 12:58 AM from United States

America is the most cosmopolitan and accepting culture on the planet - we take in anyone and everyone and let them mix in with the rest of us.

We also let them walk all over the rest of us. Just not enough to satisfy people like Prince Charlie.

Posted by Jeff51 on 10/31/05 at 02:17 AM from United States

I couldn’t find the 2/3 number… I have been looking for that for some time. I found these, but not the 2/3 number. Anyone got a link?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 04:06 AM from United States

A little perspective for those of you who have not had the “pleasure” of living in an Islamic society (I lived in Algeria between 1986 and 1989, just before civil war/insurgency broke out there).  A village there may not have a school or a hospital, but must have a mosque, unless they can hear the one from a neighboring village.  The mosque is also the preferred place for the local male trash (in traditional garb) aged 18 to 80 to hang out all day.  At the same time, the average family has approx. 10 children, which most often are left completely loose and unsupervised all day after the age of about 6, and commonly given 1 (one) Algerian Dinar a day to survive on, which buys you one baguette of bread.  Unsurprisingly, most of them spend the day stealing fruit from orchards around cities and trying to sell them along highways for whatever they can get.  Whatever infrastructure the French had been abused beyond recognition.  Illiteracy is stunning, and health care is not an appropriate term there, because hospitals are life-threatening breeders of infection.  All this in a country that is very rich in iron, natural gas, and oil, with 1,000 miles of beautiful coast line with sand beaches and gorgeous mountains and desert.  And, by the way, “observing” Muslims have been to our house, and eaten pork and drunk whisky - as you may have guessed, most of them were military, and thank God they are there to keep that dark ignorant mob and the nutty clerics in check, mostly in accordance with Article AK-47 of Bill of Rights of Human Scum.  The African syndrom - “we want freedom from the colonial oppressors”, followed by complete inability to self-govern and organize, and denial of that inability - is very strong.  Last, but not least, if you think the media are lousy here, you should see theirs - and journalists are supposed to be the educated class there, as non-religious universities and science are virtually non-existent.  To sum it up, in my opinion, Islam may or may not be hijacked by nutcases, but it is holding those societies backward, poor, and isolated.  It will become a religion of peace only when Muslims see the terror of a massive war, whether it be by their fellow Muslims, or by westerners - and I don’t mean surgical strikes to strategic targets, as these are a mere nuissance and aggravation to the average Ahmed and Fatima.  I mean wars on the scale of the ones that turned Japan and Germany permanently off fascism.  I know this sounds apocalyptic, but let’s face it, we have no other way of getting any message through to the masses over there that the clerics will not distort and misinterpret, unless it’s a damn loud one.  While I respect the President’s attempt to bring democracy to the Middle East, I am deeply skeptical.  Reagan did not bring Communism down by taking over, say, Poland (I have first-hand perspective from behind the Iron Curtain too), but by isolating it, outspending it, and letting it rot from within until it was ripe to implode.  We need a cold war against Islam, with all the propaganda/information we can muster about our lifestyle (most of you probably do not realize the role of Levi’s and Coca-Cola in the demise of Communism) and covert operations (when “accidents” that cannot be attributed to us start happening at an alarming rate to vocal and influential Islamo-fascist nutcases, that’s a disincentive to most do not appreciate).  Cold war with isolation and local civil wars, or a hot, almost global war - those are our choices that I see.  Both are unfair to about 1 bln Muslims out there, but it’s not our fault if they will not (and they certainly can, if they wish) secularize their societies.  Thus I think both Bush Sr. and Jr. have done our cause a great disservice - the former by leaving Iraq before toppling Saddam, and the latter by not leaving after toppling him and QUICKLY making sure there are no WMD programs left in place that can be a threat to us, thus not letting violence become sectarian rather than anti-American, which it eventually will anyway, when the Shia get tired of provocations and slaughter enough Sunnis to make the rest listen.  Iraq is a freaking Yugoslavia, but for some reason we are trying to keep it together.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 07:55 AM from Japan

stogy, get your “muslim friends” to respond.

Yeah, I’ve been encouraging them to join. I think that it’d be a great discussion to have.

I lived in London for eight years and traveled around quite a bit.  I certainly NEVER saw any effort by the Royal Family to advertize the merits of Islam.

I lived in London too, for quite a number of years. I remember Charles speaking out on Islamic issues a number of times. This tour is consistent with his beliefs and actions.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s mostly useless, though.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 07:56 AM from Japan

That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s mostly useless, though.

Shouldn’t I get some kind of prize for the triple negative?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 08:37 AM from United States

Sorry, stogy, you’re talking about the Royals, and Chuck the Dickless.  Useless would be an improvement, therefore, only a double negative.

And Nick....spot on, dude.  The only way to take care of the “hijacked” religion is to kill all those who believe in it.  Sorry, I know what the rest of you will say.  Twenty years from now, if you’re still alive and not busy bowing to Mecca five times a day, you can say you’re sorry for what you’re are no doubt about to say to me for this.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 08:42 AM from Japan

Sorry, stogy, you’re talking about the Royals, and Chuck the Dickless.  Useless would be an improvement, therefore, only a double negative.

Damn!

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 08:55 AM from Japan

The only way to take care of the “hijacked” religion is to kill all those who believe in it.

You are sure you are not being just a tad overzealous here?

Here is an example: I know a woman who is half European half Arab. She had a choice and she chose Islam because she felt it best suited her beliefs. Her job? She teaches non-violence in an Arab country.

Are you saying she should be killed?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 08:56 AM from United States

Oh please, Charlie still wets himself whenever his mummy give him a candy.

Posted by Poosh on 10/31/05 at 10:00 AM from United Kingdom

The Prince is often right about things, but some times he is wrong, and when he’s wrong, History has shown him to be REALLY, REALLY WRONG.

Don’t underestimate Bush, people who assume then hate him always seem to change their mind when they meet him in person. Bush has a good change of showing our Prince the error of his (the princes) ways.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 10:32 AM from United States

Uh, oh!  Prince Charles has opened his pie hole to discuss another topic!

Prince Charles: Climate Change Terrifying

New headline:  Prince Charles is Terrifying!

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:06 AM from United States

You are sure you are not being just a tad overzealous here?

Here is an example: I know a woman who is half European half Arab. She had a choice and she chose Islam because she felt it best suited her beliefs. Her job? She teaches non-violence in an Arab country.

Are you saying she should be killed?

Stogy....have you ever read the manifesto that is the blueprint for the “Religion of Peace”?  I’m wondering, if she really professes to believe in this, why does she teach something that is AGAINST the KORAN?  The Koran is violent, preaches violence, promotes violence, and tells it’s believers that violence is the way to go, even if you don’t have a beef with Christians and Jews, you should still kill them, lest they sway you with their lies, or something to that effect.
And, not to call you a liar or anything, but I have trouble believing that ANYONE, let alone a WOMAN, is teaching NON-VIOLENCE in ANY Islamic countrolled country.
And yes, if she preaches for the rule of Sharia Law for everyone, then yes, dead she is, quickly, and without one shred of remorse.
And if she rejects whole parts of the Koran, then what kind of Muslim is she, really?  That’s like saying Christians are cool, except for the ones who believe in heaven, and an afterlife, and forgiveness, and personal responsibility, and all, but it’s okay if they think it’s fine to dance on Saturday nights in a strip joint, then, hey, we’re all for THOSE CHRISTIANS.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:06 AM from United States

as monarch of a (soon to be) Muslim nation

Say what?  Britain has almost 60 million people.  Less than 2 million are Muslims.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:06 AM from United States

And I want to hear you tell me it’s NOT extreme to want someone dead who preaches for not just my country’s overthrow, but my death, too, with less concern for who I am and what I believe than YOU just tried to give HER.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:08 AM from United States

Say what?  Britain has almost 60 million people.  Less than 2 million are Muslims

They don’t have to be a majority, Leslie, they just need to take over control of parliament.  The Sunni’s were barely twenty percent of Iraq, but ruled ruthlessly for thirty years.

Posted by mikeguas on 10/31/05 at 11:28 AM from United States

Could you imagine how the world would be calling us racist intolerant assholes if this happened in America, but it is happening in France, and has been going on for four days aparently. Actually, I’m sure the cops there had a good reason to fire tear gas into a mosque.

Race riots in France

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:33 AM from United States

I wasn’t even there, and I can think of thousands of reasons to do that.....and they all start with the rank, then name, of someone killed in Iraq.  Time to take the war to where it breeds.  INSIDE EVERY MOSQUE IN THE WORLD.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:37 AM from United States

And I’ll make an exception for any muslim that:

Has never been to the same Mosque twice.

Worships in any Mosque where the Imam doesn’t preach for the overthrow of democracy in general and America and Israel in particular.

Has never donated money to a Mosque that preaches hate, or to any group or charity that preaches hate, or supports any palestinian “freedom fighter” group.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 11:42 AM from United States

I think it was Lee that said it:

Wars are not ended by the winner, but by the loser. We have punished those most directly responsible for 9/11, but that exposed a larger conflict. Our next step was to establish a beachhead of Democracy in the Middle East, and have done pretty well, despite the ongoing conflict.

What people don’t realize is that all of these bombings, IEDs, roadside bombs, suicide bombs in markets and outside mosques and schools and police stations and all the rest…

These are not “terrorist attacks in a nation at peace”. These are “ongoing attacks by the other side in the War on Terror”.

Just because we freed Paris didn’t mean that the Nazis quit fighting throughout France. They fought bitterly for every inch of ground.

This is a global war (cv Bali, Madrid, London, New Delhi) yet libtards seem to think we should send in the local yokels to slap on the ‘cuffs, instead of the First Armored Division…

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:45 AM from Japan

The Koran is violent, preaches violence, promotes violence, and tells it’s believers that violence is the way to go, even if you don’t have a beef with Christians and Jews, you should still kill them, lest they sway you with their lies, or something to that effect.

Well the Koran says a lot of things and many, like the bible, are contradictory. Like the bible, it has to be interpreted, and most people realize this. While a few muslims interpret it as supporting violence against others, most don’t.

A bunch of websites dedicated to pulling only the bad stuff out of the Koran (some of which I have shown to present a false picture) do not the whole story tell. You need to read the whole thing, and you will probably need help from an Imam in understanding it.

And, not to call you a liar or anything, but I have trouble believing that ANYONE, let alone a WOMAN, is teaching NON-VIOLENCE in ANY Islamic countrolled country.

That is a nice piece of smelly baloney you are holding. Isn’t it funny how our supposedly “liberal” press finds it so hard to report on stories of REAL peace work being done in the middle east. I personally know dozens of people - Israeli, Arab and others who are working together.

And frankly, if you want to kill my friend, you will have to kill me first. She’s open, friendly and gives great hugs.

Worships in any Mosque where the Imam doesn’t preach for the overthrow of democracy in general and America and Israel in particular.

So I guess this means you are no supporter of Pat Robertson. He advocated the overthrow of a democratically elected government last month.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:48 AM from Japan

Has never donated money to a Mosque that preaches hate, or to any group or charity that preaches hate, or supports any palestinian “freedom fighter” group

This from a guy who just advocated killing every living Muslim.

Oh, the irony.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 11:54 AM from Japan

This is a global war (cv Bali, Madrid, London, New Delhi) yet libtards seem to think we should send in the local yokels to slap on the ‘cuffs, instead of the First Armored Division…

What good are the first armoured division in Bradford?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 12:04 PM from United States

Stogy, you don’t find it the least bit odd that there is a single common thread running through almost every major conflict on the planet where civilians are dying due to violence?

Care to guess what that commonality is?

I’ll give you a hint: it portrays itself as one of the world’s major religions (as opposed to nationalities), yet it is one of the sides fighting in almost every armed conflict on the planet, no matter who the opponents might be.

Care to guess which religion it might be?

Care to explain why that commonality exists? Would you also care to explain why the Koran - that book of “contradictions” you describe - divides the entire globe into two parts, the “House of Islam” and the “House of War”? Show me any other religion that encourages the slaughter of the infidel. (And the Jooooo, but that’s just a bonus, since they believe that even the rocks and trees of the earth will cry out, saying, “O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him”. That’s what Mohammed (ptui) said, anyway.)

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:11 PM from Japan

You really think that Islam is the CAUSE of conflict??

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:21 PM from United States

While a few muslims interpret it as supporting violence against others, most don’t.

Your evidence?  As mine, I give you the Muslim world, and you show me where they DON’T preach the overthrow of Democracy, America, Israel, and anyone else NOT MUSLIM ENOUGH.

A bunch of websites dedicated to pulling only the bad stuff out of the Koran (some of which I have shown to present a false picture)

Some?  But not all, I notice.  And pulling only the “bad stuff”?  What did you think we were talking about, that it’s a horrible religion because it says “give money to charity”?  No, because we were talking about the parts where it says “give money to charity for muslims, for freedom fighters, that islam may rule the world” (paraphrasing, of course).

do not the whole story tell. You need to read the whole thing, and you will probably need help from an Imam in understanding it.

I don’t need help from an Imam to tell me that “kill all christians and jews” means to “kill all christians and jews”.  Now, you can find places in the Koran that don’t say that, but you can also find places where it does.  So how do you learn from an Imam, someone who preaches hate and the overthrow of democracy (boy is this beginning to sound old) to tell me that what he was just at the podium saying is all a lie not found in the Koran?

That is a nice piece of smelly baloney you are holding. Isn’t it funny how our supposedly “liberal” press finds it so hard to report on stories of REAL peace work being done in the middle east. I personally know dozens of people - Israeli, Arab and others who are working together.

Not baloney, unless you can show me where it’s false.
So what if you can find Arabs (I’ll even give you that they’re muslims, though most are probably Lebanese Christians or others who have also been repressed by Saddam/Wahabi Islam) who work alongside.  The Koran tells them to be at peace with us, large groups of them, so that they may support the terrorists (oops, warriors of Islam) from within the enemy’s stronghold, to work your way into the camp of the infidels and steal information to help your brothers.  Did you see all that when you read the Koran, or did you read a “cleaned-up” version that’s all peace and light?

And you want to die defending your friend?  Let her be shown to support terrorism in any way, and I’ll shoot you myself before shooting her, and sleep like a baby.  HOW DARE YOU DEFEND ISLAM IN HERE, YOU UNAMERICAN PIECE OF TRASH???  YOU WOULD LET YOUR FRIEND LIVE EVEN IF SHE WERE SHOWN TO SUPPORT TERRORISM, JUST BECAUSE SHE GIVES GREAT “HUGS”?  TELL ME YOU WOULDN’T, TELL ME THERE’S A LINE EVEN YOU WON’T CROSS!!!

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 12:29 PM from United States

You really think that Islam is the CAUSE of conflict??

Y’know, I read a very wise thing a while back.

When every single one of your relationships have fallen apart, maybe it’s time to ask yourself who is the one person that all of those failed relationships have in common.

One single group is involved in almost every violent conflict on the planet. And you think that’s just a coincidence?

THEY DELIBERATELY TARGET CIVILIANS and you’re giving them the benefit of the doubt…

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:29 PM from United States

This from a guy who just advocated killing every living Muslim.

Oh, the irony.

Oh, so some religion that advocates killing me is supposed to be treated in ANY OTHER WAY?  Why, pray tell?  Before we get there, in case it might influence your decision, say, as to whether to marry into my family at some point, I will always, forever, every single time, in every instance you can even fantasize about, advocate the killing (ruthlessly, in most cases, with torture as a pleasant afterthought just to help the pleasant dreams I’ll have) of ANYONE who wants to hurt my family.  Got it?  If that’s extreme, then call me Mr. Extreme.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:31 PM from United States

You really think that Islam is the CAUSE of conflict??

Think?  DUDE, GO READ THE KORAN, THEY ARE SIMPLY FOLLOWING THE ORDERS LAID DOWN A THOUSAND YEARS AGO!!!!

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 12:39 PM from United States

He advocated the overthrow of a democratically elected government last month.

No, actually, he was advocating the assassination of a head of state that is hostile to the United States. His point of view is his own, was immediately denounced by just about everybody else in the country, and were nevertheless protected by the First Amendment (something that the Koran doesn’t allow for, and one of the reasons that they consider us an infidel culture).

When it’s just one who is immediately denounced, you can be pretty sure that it’s just one.

When you have whole groups of them (in many cities in many nations) who are receiving government subsidies to preach hatred and death to Jews and Christians, without being denounced (except by those who are defending Islam from in the belly of the Great Satan), you can be pretty sure it’s what they really think.

How many spontaneous “Death to Islam” parades do you see in the Western world? Conversely, how many American/Israeli flags have you seen burned (both here and abroad) while chants of “Death to America/Jews” fill the air?

But that’s just a coincidence, too, huh?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:40 PM from Japan

Let’s have a look at your facts, shall we:

Here are some wars currently happening in the world:
Nepal (Maoists vs Monarchists), Ivory Coast (Control of Diamond resources), multiple wars in the Congo (resources again), Columbia (the FARC, control of the drug trade). Let’s not forget the on again off again war in Haiti (nothing), the war against the Lord’s resistance army in Northern Uganda, the war against the Spanish government waged part time by the Basques. There are lots of small wars being waged in West Africa (caused partly by the way the maps were drawn up during colonization. Still, we could add the Tamils in Sri Lanka, the Karen in Burma, the Hmong in Laos,

Then also, many of the wars being waged in the Islamic world are wars against each other, not the west, or the rest. They are wars over the control of resources, wars for independence (the Kurds), the Achenese, the West Papuans, and potential for another one between Somaliland and Somalia.

And these were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. So actually, not THAT many wars are being fought between Islam and the west.

You really think that Islam is the CAUSE of conflict??

Because if you do, I have to tell you that virtually every notable theorist on war - from Causewitz to the US Army disagrees

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 12:50 PM from Japan

I will always, forever, every single time, in every instance you can even fantasize about, advocate the killing (ruthlessly, in most cases, with torture as a pleasant afterthought just to help the pleasant dreams I’ll have) of ANYONE who wants to hurt my family.  Got it?  If that’s extreme, then call me Mr. Extreme.

Uh-uh. You didn’t say that before. You said:

The only way to take care of the “hijacked” religion is to kill all those who believe in it

Nothing about those threatening you there, was there. Just a whisker separating you from the president of Iran in my book.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 12:55 PM from United States

So actually, not THAT many wars are being fought between Islam and the west.

Against Buddhists in Indonesia
Against Russians in Chechnya
Against Muslims in Iraq/Saudi Arabia
Against Jews in Israel
Against Catholics in the Phillipines
Against America anywhere on the planet
Against Hindi in Kashmir
Bali
London
Madrid
New York City
Washington, DC
Los Angeles

Maybe you’ve missed it, stogy, but the so-called “Religion of Peace” (by subjugation or death) has committed more than 3,000 deadly attacks, just since 9/11. 3,177 as of today. Go check out the list of your “peaceful” religion and it’s “peaceful actions” (although they had to limit the running list to just the last 12 months for reasons of space).

I guess the peace of death qualifies, huh?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 12:58 PM from United States

Nothing about those threatening you there, was there.

They DO threaten each and every non-Muslim on the planet. We will either submit or die.

However, that is what we call a “false dilemma”, given that I have the right to fight back.

And we’re the ones with the 21st century technology.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 01:07 PM from Japan

Think?  DUDE, GO READ THE KORAN, THEY ARE SIMPLY FOLLOWING THE ORDERS LAID DOWN A THOUSAND YEARS AGO!!!!

Hmm...Maybe my friend only hugs me so she can work out what size knife to slip between my ribs.

And DW - that list of 3,177 attacks - most of the victims were Muslims themselves, yet when you talk about those Muslims, you always portray them as seeking some kind of world religious domination. Funny way to do it isn’t it - world domination by killing your own people.

Or could it be that there are lots of different Muslims? With lots of different ideas about themselves, God, their place in the world, violence, and all that stuff? And when idiots like the good doc start spouting off with “we have to kill them all before they come here and kill our families,” you should be the first person to say “hey - cut it out.” You would if you had half an ounce of intellectual honesty.

You guys should actually listen to yourselves! Take a step back! 15 years ago you would have said the same thing about the communists, and in 15 years you’ll be saying the same thing about the Chinese.

Surely there must be an end to your paranoid terror!!! (Hopefully one in which you don’t “extinct” the rest of the world).

oh, and my list was longer ;)

night

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 01:24 PM from United States

And DW - that list of 3,177 attacks - most of the victims were Muslims themselves

Actually, no, they weren’t, but, even if you were right, does that make it okay? That’s an average of two or three attacks causing multiple deaths and injuries every DAY since 9/11.

EVERY DAY!!!

How many deadly attacks per day are caused by Buddhists? Lutherans? Shinto?

Yeah, I couldn’t think of any either…

oh, and my list was longer ;)

That’s the only thing about you that is, stogy, so relish it.

(Hey, I gotta leave him SOME reason to go on living...)

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 01:25 PM from United States

15 years ago you would have said the same thing about the communists, and in 15 years you’ll be saying the same thing about the Chinese.

And we’ll have been right all three times, too.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 01:34 PM from United States

Most of those attacks that are Muslim on Muslim are about control, alright, but it’s so that those that aren’t Muslim enough will be subjugated to those that ARE, and so that those that ARE have resources with which to turn the rest of the world MUSLIM.  It is their stated goal, from all of them (at least, the ones we’re talking about), and the rest of them I ALREADY INCLUDED when I said Christians, Jews, and those NOT MUSLIM ENOUGH.  Or did you miss that part?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 01:38 PM from Japan

Can’t go to bed because the scanner I bought is really slow. So you get a reply - lucky you :)

Actually, no, they weren’t, but, even if you were right, does that make it okay? That’s an average of two or three attacks causing multiple deaths and injuries every DAY since 9/11.

EVERY DAY!!!

Yup. It’s terrible. I completely agree. But including 9/11 and the war deaths since then, you would have a total of some 6000 -7000 dead, yet the Iraqi body count is somewhere between 26,000 and 30,000 according to a conservative estimate. Of course quite a few have been killed by American forces, but more then 20,000? I don’t think so.

And I am just as against militant Islam as you, DW. I just balk at the methods being advocated here and think that anyone who tries to define all Muslims as being part of a global conspiracy, when it’s clear they are killing about five times as many Muslims as they are non-Muslims, is having themselves way too much whisky first thing in the morning.

And with that, the scanner finishes.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 01:47 PM from United States

yet the Iraqi body count is somewhere between 26,000 and 30,000 according to a conservative estimate.

The one in the Lancet? Or the one at IBC(dot)whatever?

Because both of them have been thoroughly disproved.  I would have thought you would have known that by now, seeing how long ago that heppened.

And none of you were remotely worried about the hundreds of thousands being killed by Saddam during the years he was being ignored by you libtards. I wonder why that is?

When Muslims love their children more than they hate America, THEN we will have peace. (With apologies to Golda)

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 02:11 PM from United States

Stogy, let’s have a look at YOUR facts, shall we?

Here are some wars currently happening in the world:
Nepal (Maoists vs Monarchists), Ivory Coast (Control of Diamond resources), multiple wars in the Congo (resources again), Columbia (the FARC, control of the drug trade). Let’s not forget the on again off again war in Haiti (nothing), the war against the Lord’s resistance army in Northern Uganda, the war against the Spanish government waged part time by the Basques. There are lots of small wars being waged in West Africa (caused partly by the way the maps were drawn up during colonization. Still, we could add the Tamils in Sri Lanka, the Karen in Burma, the Hmong in Laos,

Then also, many of the wars being waged in the Islamic world are wars against each other, not the west, or the rest. They are wars over the control of resources, wars for independence (the Kurds), the Achenese, the West Papuans, and potential for another one between Somaliland and Somalia.
And these were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. So actually, not THAT many wars are being fought between Islam and the west

First of all, I seriously doubt you thought of these “off the top of your head”.  Puhlease.

Secondly, the French are battling “mostly muslims” in the Ivory coast, and the rest are either fighting for independence or are communists trying to take over democratically elected governments, for the most part.  But just to point out a few wars and say, hey, there’s not that many MUSLIM wars going on is disingenous at best, and dishonest at worst.

Third, You really think that Islam is the CAUSE of conflict??
Because if you do, I have to tell you that virtually every notable theorist on war - from Causewitz to the US Army disagrees

Go check some updates, maybe, because I’m thinking these quotes were for something else.  If you asked these men what caused the war in Chechnya, for instance, you might hear freedom fighters fighting for independence, but would they tell you that the chechnians are MUSLIMS?  Fighting against a Christian/Catholic/Secular front?  I think not, because like everyone these days, they are trying to be politically correct.
And maybe you should check some others, and stop saying that every notable, as in, everyone who agrees with you is notable, but the rest are idiots, maybe.  And it’s Clausewitz, and I never saw where “the US Army” was a noteable theorist.

And this next part just shows just how deep your intellectual bankruptcy goes:

I will always, forever, every single time, in every instance you can even fantasize about, advocate the killing (ruthlessly, in most cases, with torture as a pleasant afterthought just to help the pleasant dreams I’ll have) of ANYONE who wants to hurt my family.  Got it?  If that’s extreme, then call me Mr. Extreme.

Uh-uh. You didn’t say that before. You said:

The only way to take care of the “hijacked” religion is to kill all those who believe in it
Nothing about those threatening you there, was there. Just a whisker separating you from the president of Iran in my book.

Don’t ever equate me with that AntiSemitic excuse for a man.  And I’m not advocating the extermination of a race, just for the sake of exterminating it, as he is.
I’m for exterminating everyone who believes in this “hijacked” form of religion, which is what we were talking about.  If you’re going to quote me, at least qoute me accurately.  Yes, there was “Nothing about those threatening you there, was there” except that little part about those believing in this hijacked form, the very group you KNOW we were talking about.  Again, your intellectual bankruptcy is so great you’d need a loan to pay attention.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 02:16 PM from United States

And I am just as against militant Islam as you, DW. I just

have decided that it’s a much smaller part of total Islam than you have

balk at the methods being advocated here and think that anyone who tries to define all Muslims as being part of a global conspiracy,

Only because all muslims believe in the Koran, which tells them to kill all christians and jews (except for the ones they imprison and repress as long as they pay a tax....which, since they aren’t allowed to work, own property, or beg, is kind of hard to pay, ya know).  No, no world wide conspiracy, just one between all muslims who believe in this book...oh, sorry, that IS all of them, ISN’T it?

when it’s clear they are killing about five times as many Muslims as they are non-Muslims,

For not being Muslim enough, I went into this, you can’t hide behind that lame defense again, stop with the semantics.

is having themselves way too much whisky first thing in the morning.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 04:33 PM from United States

I’m no theologist, but doesn’t the bible have some nasty stuff in it.  Doesn’t it say people can be killed for stuff like wearing clothes made from two different threads, or touching the skin of a dead pig, or working on the sabbth?
IF those things are in the bible, not all christians live with those ideals, so how can all muslims be lumped into the radical facists group when not all muslims are trying to strap bombs to their chests.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 04:36 PM from United States

I’m no theologist, but doesn’t the bible have some nasty stuff in it.

In most of the Old Testament, sure, but things changed about 2,000 years ago. Maybe you’ve heard about it?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 04:37 PM from United States

Those things are in the Bible mid, but none of them carries the death penalty or anything like it.  They are Old Testament laws, which Christianity has not enforced since they very early days of the church.  At least have some idea of what you are talking about before you shoot your mouth off.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 04:59 PM from United States

In line with Drum and Ian, those laws are the ceremonial cleanliness laws, none of which call for death. They were a way to keep a nomadic camp healthy. Death was for murder, rape, desecration, and so forth. Kinda like the modern US, ‘cept the desecration. While there are other death penalties in the OT, the church hasn’t enforced many of them. Also, the Koran explicitly calls for “slaughtering the unbeliever” where you find him, if he does not submit to Allah. Further, commands are elucidated in the Hadith (further Islamic teaching that is not the Koran) and are adhered to as correct by all major branches of Islam (Sunni and Shi’ite). For example, tell me if you have ever heard of a Western Christian killing his daughter for sexual impurity, and then look at the number of British girls murdered in “honor killings” in the last year alone. Then, tell me what pastor advocated such behavior, and what major seminaries supported him. Now look at the Islamic side. What we see is a 10th century outlook that hasn’t changed, and doesn’t want to. My suggesion is do what I’ve done: research Islam, starting with the Koran and hadiths, and then historical analysis (Lewis or Friedman for a example), and then tell me what Islam teaches.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:00 PM from United States

They are Old Testament laws, which Christianity has not enforced since they very early days of the church.

Then why are fundamentalist Christians so obsessed with homos?  Jesus never said anything about the subject.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 05:11 PM from United States

You answered your own question with the word “fundamentalists”.

However, why do all of the anti-religious homosexuals (and other hedonists) end up arguing against the US fight against a religion that would have them stoned to death, if they were given the chance?

Why are all of the strongly liberal feminists fighting against our struggle to free literally millions of women from oppression so severe that some women have been killed merely for being seen in the company of a male not of her family? Or to be thrown in jail for the crime of being the victim of rape?

Islam is still stuck in that “death is a legitimate penalty for blasphemy/apostasy” mindset. Yet Democrats seem to think that they deserve that point of view.

Why is that?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:22 PM from United States

You answered your own question with the word “fundamentalists”

So you recognize a difference between fundamentalist Christians and other Christians, but don’t recognize a difference between fundamentalist Muslims and other Muslims.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:22 PM from United States

Actually, Christ and the New Testament refer to all sexual sins, including homosexuality, multiple times.

However, Drum’s point is well taken. Why do those who rail against Christian fundamentalists want to support bad guys who make the Christian nuts seem nice and cuddly? Routinely, the terrorists refer to the US as a culture so evil it must destroyed, usually referring to the fact that we don’t kill homos, make women stay at home or with male chaperones, and don’t force religion down everyone’s throats.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:27 PM from United States

There isn’t a branch of Islam that isn’t fundamentalist in the sense we’re referring to it. Those who question the Koran’s explicit commands are regarded as aspostates and put under a death sentence. Remember Salmon Rusdie? Heard of the all teh Dutchmen and women killed for questioning the Koran and its common interpretation?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 05:39 PM from United States

but don’t recognize a difference between fundamentalist Muslims and other Muslims.

Let’s see some of those “moderate” Muslims in other more Muslim countries start dropping a dime on those who are giving their religion a bad name. You cannot tell me that they do not know which groups are operating in their own neighborhoods, just as those who live in Compton and South Central and any other criminal-infested areas know who Da Playaz are.

Start standing up against them rather than donating to their cause, and I’ll start believing that there is a difference.

A difference which makes no difference IS no difference.

Omar Sharif just had a death fatwa put on him because he would be playing Saint Peter in an upcoming movie.

Really moderate.

Saudi imams put a fatwa against soccer, with some (ahem) “rules changes”, including how it isn’t for entertainment, but training for the jihad. (Rule change #8)

I especially like how they want to change the shape of the net, from a box with a crossbar to plain upright poles. Why? “In order not to imitate the heretics and in order to be entirely distinct from the soccer system’s despotic international rules.”

Sounds really moderate, eh?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:40 PM from United States

Why do those who rail against Christian fundamentalists want to support bad guys who make the Christian nuts seem nice and cuddly?

Who does this? all of the anti-religious homosexuals and all of the strongly liberal feminists, right?  Where is your proof?  I’ve never heard an anti-religious homosexual or a liberal feminist support fundamentalist Islamists.  Where is the backing for this statement?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 05:46 PM from United States

I’ve never heard an anti-religious homosexual or a liberal feminist support fundamentalist Islamists.

And you won’t. What I said was they are working against our fight with that culture.

They are arguing that we are in an “illegal war”, while ignoring the actual results of what we’re doing.

Tell us, Les, you are arguing against the war. That means that you would have wanted things left exactly the way things were, whether you like that fact or not.

That means YOU are supporting the other side in this conflict, because they have made it clear that the only end is either death or submission for everyone.

Which do you choose, Leslie? Why?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 05:47 PM from Canada

Have you read this blog Les? Are you being obtuse on purpose? Lee has a search box on the front page. Try using it.

Posted by sneaky_pete on 10/31/05 at 05:50 PM from United States

Oh, she’s read it.  She knows her Right Thinking.

Drum’s got a point though.  I know I was not happy about the status quo over there.  This war needed to happen.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:01 PM from United States

Never said all, did I? That would be a bit asbolutist, not to mention unfair.

As for evidence, how about the lammentations by Andrew Sullivan, Maureen Dowd,CNN, and other big name writers and media regarding the conduct of the war and how bad the US is trating detainees? How about the ACLU’s press releases and court proceedings on the same issue? You should be able to see that the left is nonexistent when it comes to standing up for real human rights and more busy being pissed at Bush.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:05 PM from United States

while ignoring the actual results of what we’re doing.

You mean these results?

“Iraqi civilians and security forces were killed and wounded by insurgents at a rate of about 26 a day early in 2004, and at a rate of about 40 a day later that year. The rate increased in 2005 to about 51 a day, and by the end of August had jumped to about 63 a day.”

Doesn’t sound like progress to me.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 06:13 PM from United States

Doesn’t sound like progress to me.

In case you missed it, dimwit, we are AT WAR.

There is fighting every day. Are you recommending surrender?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:19 PM from United States

My goodness. Iraqi civilian and police casualties go up as terrorists focus on shooting and bombing civilians instead of attacking US troops. Who would have thought?

As for progress, here you go. http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson102405.html

The first real election in the Middle East outside of Israel and Turkey. The ouster of a kleptokiller and his whole regime. Allowing Iraqis to actually criticize their government without death, rape and mutilation by that very government. Seems like progress to me.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:22 PM from United States

I don’t know why you must always resort to namecalling, dumbasster.

Yes, and that war is in the wrong place for the wrong reasons, and the insurgents are killing nearly three times as many people a day now than they were two years ago.  Perhaps if we had actually concentrated on Islamofascist terrorists, like in Afghanistan, instead of wasting resources in Iraq, we would have more to show for the “War on Terror”.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:24 PM from United States

We already did focus on Afghanistan. Remember? Went there right after 9/11? They’ve had multiple elections, still fight Islamofacists, etc?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:26 PM from United States

The first real election in the Middle East outside of Israel and Turkey.

That approved a constitution that enshrines Islam as the law of the land.  Isn’t that exactly the results that this whole thread is railing against?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:30 PM from United States

We already did focus on Afghanistan. Remember?

But didn’t finish the job.

Posted by Lee on 10/31/05 at 06:30 PM from United States

That approved a constitution that enshrines Islam as the law of the land.  Isn’t that exactly the results that this whole thread is railing against?

Leslie, part of freedom and self-determination is the right to choose one’s own form of government.  If the Iraqis want to choose to live under Islamic law that’s their business.  If their Islamic government becomes our enemy, then it becomes our business.  Whatever form of government they choose is perfectly acceptable to me, provided they don’t work in concert with our enemies to destroy us.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 06:32 PM from United States

Perhaps if we had actually concentrated on Islamofascist terrorists, like in Afghanistan, instead of wasting resources in Iraq,

Oh, so there were no terrorists in Iraq? Iraq never supported or trained terrorists? Or paid for the slaughter of Israeli civilians?

Oh, wait.

You fucking shit-for-brains, don’t you DARE lecture me on something you show no understanding of, lest I reach through the screen and slap you simply for being so fucking stupid.

“Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time” = “We should have left Saddam in place”.

Isn’t that exactly the results that this whole thread is railing against?

NO!

You are either deliberately ignoring the whole “freedom of religion” clause, which makes you a partisan hack who is lying to win an argument; OR, you actually didn’t know about it, and your uninformed opinion is completely worthless.

Which is it? Are you a liar or just a dumbass who’s sticking her nose into adult discussions?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 06:34 PM from United States

But didn’t finish the job.

Okay, so that makes you a deliberate liar.

Who is the President of Afghanistan? How was he chosen?

If you have the guts to actually answer those questions, and the intellectual honesty to admit to the implications, then we’ll talk again.

Until then, Liar, go suck someone else’s scrotum.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:35 PM from United States

That approved a constitution that enshrines Islam as the law of the land.  Isn’t that exactly the results that this whole thread is railing against?

Leslie, part of freedom and self-determination is the right to choose one’s own form of government.  If the Iraqis want to choose to live under Islamic law that’s their business.  If their Islamic government becomes our enemy, then it becomes our business.  Whatever form of government they choose is perfectly acceptable to me, provided they don’t work in concert with our enemies to destroy us.

Thanks Lee. Here, the people of Iraq chose a form of Islam; it was not forced on them by Islamofacists. If you will note, those guys were the ones trying to attack the voters. They don’t want the watered down, federalist Constitution the Iraqis voted on, they want full caliphate control and they didn’t get it.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:36 PM from Canada

Besides, according to the Iraqi constitution:

Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source

of legislation:

(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.

(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.

(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:37 PM from United States

Leslie is another who has gone morally bankrupt, intellectually, as well.  Tell me why Iraq is wrong, Leslie.  Is it because we found terrorists there?  Is it because you were getting kickbacks in the OFP program?  Why do you continue to support Saddam?  You don’t think he was dangerous?  So we didn’t find a big box with WMD on it.  We found precursors, facilities where they could take seed stocks and regenerate within days, shells ready to fill with the stuff, chem suits already in the hands of the frontline troops, because they honestly thought they were about to be gassed, like Kurds.  Just how big are those blinders, Leslie?  And if you’re going to complain about someone calling names, it’s usually a good idea either to NOT call them a name while you’re doing it, or call them one that’s funny, and makes sense, otherwise you out yourself for the geek you are.  No arguments of your own, so you just refer to (sounds like an old one, at that) the front page on DU or Kos or BushLied or wherever you got those talking points from.  From now on, we’ll make you go look up your own answers, got it?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:38 PM from United States

Here, the people of Iraq chose a form of Islam; it was not forced on them by Islamofacists

But there is no difference between fundamentalist Muslims and other Muslims, remember?

Can’t you guys keep your stories straight?

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:38 PM from United States

While I wouldn’t use the terms Drum did, he made several good points. I’ll just add this: we are still in Afghanistan. We have fewer troops there becasue the good guys are helping, and there’s more need for ‘em in Iraq.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:39 PM from United States

Until then, Liar, go suck someone else’s scrotum.

You have no scrotum, you tired old bitch.

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:43 PM from United States

But there is no difference between fundamentalist Muslims and other Muslims, remember?

Can’t you guys keep your stories straight?

Read above again. I said there is no non-fundamentlist strain of Islam. What we’re seeing in Iraq is the birth of one.

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 06:45 PM from United States

You have no scrotum, you tired old bitch.

Methinks you’re mistaking me for your regular customers. (Your ad was listed as ‘Bukkakes-R-Us’, wasn’t it?)

But there is no difference between fundamentalist Muslims and other Muslims, remember?

You mean like being against the war on humanitarian grounds?

Posted by Drumwaster on 10/31/05 at 06:48 PM from United States

Never mind, Tex, Loser-liar doesn’t have the intellectual acumen to recognize reality, and instead relies on tired repeats of “anything done by a Republican is bad”.

Let she/he/it (s’h’it) get back to her/his/its (scum’bag) pathetic existence (pi’ti’ful).

Posted by on 10/31/05 at 06:52 PM from United States

Appears so. My last point was so good, I think I’ll do a George Costanza and leave with applause.

See y’all later.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 03:21 AM from United States

You guys should actually listen to yourselves! Take a step back! 15 years ago you would have said the same thing about the communists, and in 15 years you’ll be saying the same thing about the Chinese.

It was wrong for my mother to hate the folks that planted missles in Cuba, a short distance from her Florida home, and threatened her and everyone within radius of their missles with nuclear annihilation?

Well then fuck off, you donkey-raping shit-eater.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 03:28 AM from United States

And we’ll have been right all three times, too.

Thanks drum, that’s what I wanted to say, but sometimes the implied logic behind a liberal spout really infuriates me, and words fail.

“You guys are paranoid, they’re not a big deal, just like the commies weren’t, and the growing Chinese threat isn’t.”

No one that has the means, motive and opportunity to slaughter all of us is EVER a worry with you assholes.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 03:31 AM from Japan

The Doc said:

The only way to take care of the “hijacked” religion is to kill all those who believe in it

I apologise. I misread your earlier statement to mean that you were advocating the murder of all Muslims (and what you wrote could easily be read that way).

Of course, if you had answered my question about killing my friend straight up, then a lot of confusion could have been avoided.

I am glad that you believe that not all Muslims deserve death. From this I can then infer that you believe many Muslims do not believe in the extremist policies of their brethren. I do hope you won’t feel the need to raise the issue of the secret Muslim World Domination Plan (TM). If you do, you will have to explain why this plan means that far more Muslims than Christians will have to die, and then I will have to step in. And we will have to do this all over again.

And yes, it was my list of conflicts. I do read, you know (much to DW’s chagrin). I noticed that you never got around to reading the US army report I linked to on the cause of conflicts, but then, it didn’t really help your case, did it.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 04:44 AM from United States

Stogy
I don’t care about the US Army.  You can’t prove anything with one source’s opinion.  No, I don’t have to read it, because the Army can say any damn thing it wants to say, the Koran still says what it does.
I don’t advocate killing ALL muslims?  Did you see my qualifiers?  Did she donate to Muslim charity?  Then she did so with full knowledge of where her money goes, and I’d still be for offing her.
The secret Muslim World Domination Plan?  Are you a lunatic or what?  A, it’s no secret, and B, it’s exactly the reason to kill them all, every single one who believes in that crap, and before you try to make it sound like that would be point zerozerozerozerozerozerozero something, or slightly more than the number of people you could fit into a small phone booth, think again, there are BILLIONS of Muslims who believe that they should overthrow the US, eliminate Israel, etc.  And yes, I think all of them should be killed.  You are obviously a nutter over Islam.  Go suck up to it if you want, but me, I’m ready to kill all of them, even your friend, and yes, when she hugs you, she just MIGHT be measuring you up for where to stick the knife.  IS she?  Who knows, you won’t until you feel it slip between your ribs, and even then, you might not know if she did it, or someone else she supports did it.
I say it again.  If they donate to hateful muslim groups (most of them), if they don’t renounce the call for the destruction of the state of Israel and the US, then off with their heads.  And who cares if you read, if you read nothing but Muslim loving crap, you will always fall for their lies.  You sould like one of those converts to Islam to me.  Still nothing wrong with it in your mind?  I’m betting you’re one of those American hating, self-loathing types who think all Americans are bad.
Well, if so, then let me change my tune, just for you.  We need to get YOU guys first.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 04:51 AM from United States

And it’s not murder when it’s THEY who have already advocated the elimination of ME.  It’s then called self-defense.  Christians don’t go around every sunday from every pulpit shouting to kill all muslims, to lie to them, cheat them, steal from them.  No, that’s what comes from the Imams in every Mosque everywhere in the world on any given day.  You can’t equivocate your way out of that, and your attempts to make me sound like some frothing at the mouth assassin just make you look all the more foolish.  What will YOU do when they come to kill YOU and YOUR family for not being Muslim enough?  Try to be MORE Muslim?  Maybe off your neighbors before they get here just to show them how sincere you are about the “Religion of Peace”?

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 04:54 AM from United States

And I don’t have to explain nothing to you, dimwit, cause I don’t care if it means “far more Muslims will die”, you see, I don’t care if they say, hey, we’ll kill mostly our own.....it’s MY OWN that I’m worried about.  They want to kill each other?  Great, let me sharpen their knives for them, right down to the last one, for all I care, then hang that one for murder.  Do it any way you want, just get rid of this religion that says death to freedom, death to democracy, and death to the US and Israel and all who believe in it, including you, Stogy, for daring to chose them over us.  Traitor.  Go suck up to Charley, you sound like the perfect toadie for him.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 05:51 AM from Japan

OK. I’ll deal with these points one by one;

don’t care about the US Army.  You can’t prove anything with one source’s opinion.  No, I don’t have to read it, because the Army can say any damn thing it wants to say, the Koran still says what it does.

Yeah, but so does the old testament - many people don’t accept it at face value, and realize that it has to be interpreted. Lots of Muslims believe the same thing. Sure, I know there are sites with people saying the everyone should take the Koran at face value, but there are plenty of other who don’t. There are lots of Muslims who drink, some who eat pork, plenty who don’t go to the Mosque. And you are telling me that they are all a bunch of fundamentalists intent on enslaving me. OK. So prove it to me. Where are your sources?

Now you are right - you don’t have to read the army link I posted, and no, you are right again, it doesn’t prove the argument to be true. However if you really want to argue as you are, you do really need to go through it and dismiss the arguments therein. Otherwise I might as well be arguing with a sack of beans.

I don’t advocate killing ALL muslims?  Did you see my qualifiers? 

Yup, I saw them now. I told you that.

Did she donate to Muslim charity? 

Oh so don’t wait for my answer...just go right ahead.

Then she did so with full knowledge of where her money goes, and I’d still be for offing her.

So the UK should be able to off IRA supporters on US soil?

The secret Muslim World Domination Plan? 

You forgot the trade mark!!

Are you a lunatic or what?  A, it’s no secret, and B, it’s exactly the reason to kill them all, every single one who believes in that crap, and before you try to make it sound like that would be point zerozerozerozerozerozerozero something, or slightly more than the number of people you could fit into a small phone booth, think again, there are BILLIONS of Muslims who believe that they should overthrow the US, eliminate Israel, etc. 

Er...I think there are about 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. You are saying that there are billions who support this? But I will let this go. I would however, like you to prove your point. Show me links please. Ones that prove to me that my Muslim friends are really just hiding the truth from me. You could also ask your Muslim friends…

You are obviously a nutter over Islam.  Go suck up to it if you want, but me, I’m ready to kill all of them, even your friend, and yes, when she hugs you, she just MIGHT be measuring you up for where to stick the knife.  IS she?  Who knows, you won’t until you feel it slip between your ribs, and even then, you might not know if she did it, or someone else she supports did it.

Too stupid for words.

And who cares if you read, if you read nothing but Muslim loving crap, you will always fall for their lies.

OK. You are just mouthing off now. Say something intelligent so I can refute it. You obviously don’t read.

You sould like one of those converts to Islam to me.  Still nothing wrong with it in your mind?  I’m betting you’re one of those American hating, self-loathing types who think all Americans are bad. Well, if so, then let me change my tune, just for you.  We need to get YOU guys first.

No. Once again. There are loads of good people who are Americans - many of them right-wingers, many of them visit here. Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for some of the people who post here.

Not you, though. You are just a troll.

There are plenty of good Muslims too. You’d realize this if you actually pulled yourself together and went out and talked to some. Why don’t you? Why don’t you challenge yourself? Go and meet someone with different opinions to your own? It’s really worth it.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 06:01 AM from Japan

Christians don’t go around every sunday from every pulpit shouting to kill all muslims, to lie to them, cheat them, steal from them.  No, that’s what comes from the Imams in every Mosque everywhere in the world on any given day.

You seem to skip between saying that you only want to kill the bad Muslims and then saying all Muslims are bad, and then you deny wanting to kill them all, and then you go back to the beginning again.

I also really think you need to base your opinions in fact, not in something you heard on Rush.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 06:13 AM from Japan

Stogy, for daring to chose them over us.  Traitor.  Go suck up to Charley, you sound like the perfect toadie for him.

I am a traitor for what exactly? For saying what I think? For disagreeing with you? For defending the innocent (and yes, that’s what I am doing)? For advocating justice without exception, and whatever the cost? For preaching tolerance instead of hate?

Well, so be it. If, in your book, this is what it means to be a traitor, then I’m a traitor.

Posted by Poosh on 11/01/05 at 08:03 AM from United Kingdom

Is Drumwaster doing multiple-bitch-slappings again?

Great multi-tasking skills, he must be a woman…

Posted by Poosh on 11/01/05 at 08:12 AM from United Kingdom

Some of you idiots forget one clear distinction between true Christianity and true Islam. Even Kingdom Of Heaven points it out (which suprised me given that the movie is bullshit and anti-Christian)

“Jesus says DECIDE”
“Muhammad says SUBMIT”

Someone mentioned living in an Islamic State. As you may or may not know, half of my blood comes from Brunei - an Islamic State. If you take drugs you’re dead. And dancing in the streets is banned. But it sure beats the hell out of Saddam’s regime or a more extreme Islamic state like Iran. Plus over time liberalisation must occur. The whole of Brueni was gripped by some fucking stupid version Malay of Pop Idol (it was a rip-off of the UK’s Fame Accademy, but I say Pop Idol cause it’s pretty much like that).

Plus my Sultan locked up some anti-Iraq-war protesters. That’s my Sultan! *smiles*

And stop fucking lying Leslie. No one said that all Muslims are teh same as terrorist Muslims.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 08:29 AM from Japan

This is off topic, but it has been annoying me:

It was wrong for my mother to hate the folks that planted missles in Cuba, a short distance from her Florida home, and threatened her and everyone within radius of their missles with nuclear annihilation?

Well yes, but then it was probably wrong of the CIA to have organized the Bay of Pigs invasion. Treating the Cuban Missile Crisis as an isolated historical event really doesn’t help you or your mother understand how exactly the Cubans felt, particularly at a time when Castro was still extremely popular in Cuba.

If you were afraid of a US invasion (certainly on the cards at the time), wouldn’t you have used whatever you could lay your hands on to defend yourself?

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 08:45 AM from United States

stogy, you keep making it sound like only a small percentage of Muslims are supportive of terrorists.  I want to see your proof.  And I don’t mean that crap you fall for every day, apparently.  You would believe them if they just said, “Oh, no, Stogy, of COURSE we don’t support that”, then snickered behind their hands.  Cause that’s what they are doing.
Go ahead, don’t read anymore, just go find all the muslims you can, and ask each one of them one simple question.

Do you support the overthrow of Israel, the US, and democracy?

If they say yes, there you go.

If they say no, then they don’t believe in the Koran, and I dare you to make them say it in a Mosque.(and by the way, go to their mosque and see what their Imam preaches)

I’ve told you, the Koran itself tells them that MOST will preach peace and cooperation in order to help the warrior side compete their mission.

Ask them, stogy, don’t keep plying your platitudes in here.  We don’t believe you.  And I am not a troll, I am someone who USED to have lots of Muslims friends, my mechanic, my doctor, and several others I was simly acquainted with, even one white guy who converted.  I wrote them all off, because they all support the overthrow of Israel, (but not the US, so they say) and the installation of Sharia Law in the US....for all, Christians included.

Sound like your friends, Stogy?  For supporting these kind of muslims, for spreading the lie that they are not harmful and hold no ill will towards YOU and ME both, you are a traitor.  For preaching tolerance of intolerance, you are simply a Useful Idiot, as Mona Charen calls you.

And I don’t listen to that windbag Rush.  I agree with most of what he says, but I don’t like listening to his ego get in the way of every message.

And how is it I’m too stupid for words when it is the Islamics themselves who say and do these things?  Remember the guy in Holland?  Van Gogh?  That knife slipped right between his ribs, I bet he had a friend or two that was a “peaceful muslim”.  It is you who are too stupid for words.  But go ahead, believe what you want, I just hope they get you first.

Sorry, I mispoke, should have been MILLIONS, not BILLIONS.  Get over it.

As to the rest of it, you argue like a child, and are not worth responding too.  “Yup, I saw them now”, then saying “don’t wait for my answer?” Just how big of an idiot ARE you?

And nothing else you said IS refutable, projection on your part since you accused me of it.  Every single point I raised IS refutable, if only it weren’t TRUE.

And I don’t believe you have ANY respect for ANYONE, much less anyone in here that disagrees with you.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 08:48 AM from United States

And don’t bring your revisionist history in here about the Bay of Pigs.  You will get trounced.  But now we see the depths of your intellectual bankruptcy.  You are also a Castro lover.  Now, there is no point you can make that is not colored by the fact that you are an apologist for communists and Islamics, or, as we say in here, ANYBODY WHO HATES AMERICA.

Well, I have just one more message for you.  Go live where you worship.  I dare you.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 08:52 AM from United States

From what I can see, there are three kinds of muslims.  The terrorist/wahabi sect, the majority of muslims who support them, or at least their goals, and that third sect, the “peaceful” muslims.  But then again, peaceful or not, hunted by the wahabi sect or not, they STILL preach for the overthrow of democracy and the installation of Sharia law.  Any muslim that preaches for sharia law for everyone is a bad muslim in my book, and I dare anyone to make the case that they are not until you decide how YOU plan to live with a bunch of religous zealots who are working for YOUR IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE, BEHEADING, AND EVENTUALLY DHIMMITUDE, but only for those they leave alive.  Go ahead, find one of those peaceful Muslims and ask them if they don’t support Sharia Law for everyone.  I’ll support anyone who doesn’t in their fight for religous freedom.  Otherwise, off with their head.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 09:54 AM from Japan

I am busy working, but I have time to deal with this one:

You are also a Castro lover.

No. I am no Castro lover. I am aware of the human rights problems and the lack of freedom of speech. Hell, I have even been there - couldn’t wait to get back to Mexico. I have said all this before, anyway. It’s not news.

I do stand by what I wrote about the connection between the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile crisis. You are saying there was no connection???

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 10:22 AM from United States

I have no idea if there was a “connection” or not, but I do know that Castro considered letting the Communists in LONG before the Bay of Pigs.  Hey, get this straight.  One incident does not lead necessarily to another without considerable background, without a lot of politics.  Heck, the FIRST incident, if you can find it, was caused by one side’s belief that the other side’s belief threatened their own, plain and simple.  Democratic representatives from most countries made statements that were threatening to ANY communist regime.  Now, you want me to apologize for feeling that communism is wrong, morally and intellectually wrong?  Never.  And I won’t apologize for wanting to free the world, because I feel that it is my responsibility as a MAN, not as a Christian/Jew/Muslim, etc.  God does not rule my mind and actions, only I do.  I feel it necessary to rise up and stamp out ANY movement that wants to kill me, and if you can’t understand this, that’s your problem.  If you can’t understand they want YOU dead as bad as they want ME dead, then you are simply out of touch with reality.  I don’t care if it’s Communism, Islam, or Maoism.  NOBODY tells me what to do, because I am an American, and here, we’re FREE.  Everyone who tries to change that dies.  THAT’S MY RULE NUMBER ONE.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 10:46 AM from United States

Ian,
“At least have some idea of what you are talking about before you shoot your mouth off.”

I sadi right at the start of my post that I wasn’t sure if I was right...dial it down a bit.

Texaslawyer,
“Why do those who rail against Christian fundamentalists want to support bad guys who make the Christian nuts seem nice and cuddly?”

Christian fundamentalists CAN be(not always are) just as homicidal as islamofacists. Those that choose to shoot abortion doctors are an example.

“There isn’t a branch of Islam that isn’t fundamentalist in the sense we’re referring to it.”

Then please explain why there are thousands of muslims who live in the U.S. today who worship here who arent trying to fly planes into buildings.

Drumwaster,
“Let’s see some of those “moderate” Muslims in other more Muslim countries start dropping a dime on those who are giving their religion a bad name.”

Very good point.

Posted by Drumwaster on 11/01/05 at 11:45 AM from United States

Posted by Poosh on 11/01 at 06:03 AM

Is Drumwaster doing multiple-bitch-slappings again?

Great multi-tasking skills, he must be a woman…

{pokes Poosh in the eye}

Then please explain why there are thousands of muslims who live in the U.S. today who worship here who arent trying to fly planes into buildings.

In every religion, there are fundamentalists. That means that “fundamentalism” is a spectrum, ranging from 0% (very liberal) to 100% (James Dobson/Osama bin Laden).

Given the very nature of the religion, it encourages a fundamentalist belief, simply because of the precepts of that religion.

In Christianity (which includes almost all American religious divisions, such as Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon, etc.), the main goal is on forgiveness and choosing to “do good”. If someone will not convert, the Christian will “pray harder for wisdom” or for God to “soften his heart” so that he will choose to become religious.

Islam is not about choosing. It is about conversion. Period. If an infidel will not convert, he is to be enslaved or killed.

They have divided the entire world into two “Houses”: the House of Islam and the House of War. The House of Islam are the Muslims, and the House of war are the non-Muslims. Muslims (the House of Islam) are in a constant state of spiritual/political/physical warfare with Non-Muslims (the House of War) until they subjugate them into Islam. Link

But let’s look at their message of ”love and tolerance”, as taken from their own websites…

I especially love this one, wherein a man killed his wife for insulting the Prophet, and was forgiven by Mohammed (ptui) himself. In the explanation as to why this is still being taught as “proper” we find this tidbit of knowledge taught to thew Faithful:

In short the Qur’an says it is the unalterable law of Allah that when he sends his messenger in a people, these particular people are left with no option but to accept his message or to face the punishment of death and sometimes complete annihilation.

Do your Muslim friends tell you that this is what they get taught in Sunday School?

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 02:21 PM from United States

I have never lived in a Muslim country, but I have visited four, one for only a stop-over.  Kazakstan was (at the time) officially Muslim, but it was heavily visited by Party officials back in the day.  It doesn’t have a Muslim feel at all, and Alma-Ata looks really Stalinesque.  I never got harassed as a woman or an American.

Uzbekistan was interesting.  Tashkent was like Alma, pretty “big city” for Central Asia.  At the end of our conference, we all got the idea to go to Samarquand to see all the Tamerlane architecture, the Registan, etc.  I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life; apparently it is in a more rural area.  I made a huge mistake and wore walking shorts (NOT Daisy Dukes).  I was stared at all day by creepy men, but no one called for my stoning.

I mention this because, based on my experiences, I do not believe that all Muslims are the same.  After years of communist rule, Muslims in Central Asia were only strict in rural areas, and even then could only stare at the spectacle of a woman in pants above the knee.

Cairo, Egypt is very friendly, but I left the knee pants at home.  Walking around only gets you harassed by merchants hawking crap, they could simply not care less that I was non-Muslim.

In contrast, CDC women have had to wear veils in Saudi Arabia and pretend to be with their brothers while travelling there for work.

I do believe that the problems stem from extremists.

Posted by Poosh on 11/01/05 at 07:33 PM from United Kingdom

There is ONE line is Kingdom of Heaven which says what Dumwaster is trying to say.

A Christian says CHOOSE

A Muslim says SUBMIT

I don’t know how that line slipped into the movie but it’s true.

Posted by on 11/01/05 at 09:20 PM from United States

Then please explain why there are thousands of muslims who live in the U.S. today who worship here who arent trying to fly planes into buildings.

So, in order for us to call them terrorists, we have to wait for them to actually commit the act themselves?  Standing in the mosque calling for our destruction isn’t enough?  Donating to Hamas and Hezbollah isn’t enough?  Calling for the destruction of Israel isn’t enough?  The Koran says that most of them should do exactly that, nothing, in order to walk among us freely, the better to support those who choose to make war against us.  This reasoning, the idea that there were thousands walking among us that aren’t dangerous, is false.  I’ve heard it compared to only wanting to attack those pilots who actually flew each plane during the Pearl Harbor attack, or maybe stretching it to include anyone participating in the attack in any form, but not their maintenance crews, carrier and battleship crews, etc.  And just like in that case, the concept is LUDICROUS in the extreme.  Most of those muslims you talk about are either on the chopping list for not being Muslim enough (I’m betting a small percentage, but either way) or busy donating every dime they can to extremist groups and mosques who support the terrorists, or donate to families of martyrs, etc.  Or, maybe they are on the mission of just trying to spread Sharia Law to the US, the ultimate goal of wahabism, world domination and the downfall of the US, Israel, and any other ELECTED government in the world.  That is, if what they themselves say is to be believed.  But hey, they could be just saying that trying to impress us all with their tough talk, like in school.  Riiiiggghhht.

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